WDD LIVE 082: Rapid Wireframing in Figma & Why UX & Copywriting Should Be Done in a Design Tool

You you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you test now test one test one test one test one two three one two two three I’m waiting all the levels look good hold on one okay are we good we good okay I don’t all the levels like all the meters are going going perfectly fine all the meters look good so okay I guess we’re okay I guess we’re good I don’t I don’t I don’t I don’t know what it was there was a little setting off and max settings but uh it appears we’re okay okay well let’s try that again let’s try that again let’s try that I mean I just introduced I just introduced I just introduced I just said hi to like 17 people and nobody could hear well we’re not gonna do that again we’re not gonna do that again we’re not gonna do that again um all right we’re just gonna we’re gonna talk about our what we’re doing today and then we’re gonna get right into it We’re not going to waste any time.

Ecamm now is giving me this extra streaming window and I really don’t, I didn’t ask for it and I don’t really need it.

I just need to get it out of the way.

We are going to be rapidly wireframing an example website today.

We’re gonna be doing a little bit of copy work, copy, copywriting work.

It’s always sketch to say copy work, copywriting work.

We’re gonna do some of this stuff together.

The point of this stream, the main goal of this stream is to take a look at the all new frames for Figma, see how it works, see how you can get started in Figma, doing wireframing, doing copywriting work, why this work should be done in Figma and not in a dev environment.

And I think you’re gonna see very clearly why that is the case.

One thing that I wanted to definitely take a look at in this stream because there’s a, if you didn’t know, there’s a link down below to frames for Figma.

And there’s a lot of people who are going to feel like either A, they don’t need it or two, they don’t need it because it’s $299. and what I want this stream to highlight because this is not a, if you know anything about why we design and build tools, we build tools that solve real problems.

We don’t build tools like, hey, there’s an opportunity in the market.

Let’s go seize the opportunity.

Let’s go make some money.

Like that’s not, and actually when I advise people on building brands and building companies and building products, I never, if they ever say, like when I ask them, why, why are you going to build that thing?

Why are you going to, you know, pursue that idea?

If they, if one of their top reasons is, well, you know, we looked at the market, the market, they’re selling like hotcakes.

Is this thing over there?

Nope, don’t do it.

Don’t stop.

That’s a bad reason.

It’s a bad, it’s a really bad reason to get into a market, right?

To build a business, to build a brand, to build a company, whatever.

You should, the first thing out of their mouth should be like, well, we identified this major challenge, this major hurdle, this major obstacle, this major pitfall.

And we think that we can solve for that.

We think we can make people’s lives a lot easier and a lot better doing X, Y, Z.

Okay.

Those are really, really good reasons.

So people look at something like frames from Figma.

They might write it off and be like, ah, there’s another add on.

It’s another thing to sell.

It’s another product.

What you have to understand is it solves for very, very, very real needs.

For one, it is the key, like the linchpin of a truly professional workflow.

Never would a professional agency get caught dead.

Okay.

You just have to understand this about like professional agencies.

And if you consider yourself to be a professional agency, or you aspire to have a so-called professional agency, the idea that you would show up to a client meeting.

Okay.

And this is, you’ve already sold the project, whatever.

And you’re, you’re in round one.

And well, you’re actually past round one because discovery is, should be round one.

Now you’re in round two.

You’re in phase two, which is usually something like UX design, like wireframing.

The idea that a professional agency would ever show up to that client meeting to show their work in a dev environment is outlandish.

It just doesn’t, it just doesn’t happen.

It doesn’t happen because it’s not the plan.

It’s not the place for, that’s not, you’re putting the cart way before the horse.

Okay.

What they show up with is Figma files.

In the old days, it was XD files or Photoshop files.

But now XD is dead.

And Figma is the, the top dog.

So they, they show up with Figma files.

And there’s a very, very good reason.

Many, many, many good reasons why they show up with Figma files and not a dev environment.

Many good reasons.

Okay.

And that’s what you’re going to see today.

That’s the point of the stream is to highlight why that is.

Now you also might be thinking, well, Kevin, this is going to be a lot more work.

It’s going to be a, it’s just a lot of extra work.

It’s going to be very difficult.

It’s, it’s a new tool that I really have to learn that I have to figure out that I have to.

And what, what I’m, again, what I’m going to highlight today is actually you are going to be able to just install the thing and pretty much just use it out of the box for the wireframing phase. and for the copy development phase and for iterations of these phases, which by the way, now it goes way beyond that.

You can do full UI design.

You can do full custom design.

You could do a lot of, you can do a lot of crazy stuff.

Okay.

But you don’t have to, you can just the act of wireframing, what I’m going to show you and copy development, what I’m going to show you.

Actually, you can even leave the copy development out of it, just the wireframing aspect of it.

And the way you can iterate with wireframes, would pay for the tool times a hundred.

The data loan, you don’t even have to do anything else with the tool.

That would just pay for the tool times a hundred.

Okay.

So the, the price of the product is actually like a, it’s an, it’s an irrelevant factor.

Once you understand what’s going on here, once you understand how to use the tool, once you understand that you’re actually selling the things you’re producing in the tool itself, aside from what you normally do in web design, when you understand all of these pieces of the puzzle, the picture becomes very clear.

And it should be, it should just be an obvious thing.

So what I want to do with this stream is to get you over the hurdle, the initial hurdle of like, okay, what is it for?

How does it work?

Do I need to learn a lot to use it?

How quick is it to use?

How slow is it to use?

Whatever.

And what would it, what would using it look like?

And then like, you know, see the clear distinction between why you do this stuff in Figma, not in bricks or a dev environment or something like that.

And that’s, that’s the point of the live stream.

Now, some of the extra stuff that you’re going to get in terms of value.

Well, we’re going to talk about copy together.

We’re going to, we’re going to like, we’re going to, this is a sample business.

I’m just going to give you an idea.

We’re actually going to do some idea iteration as well.

You guys are participating in the stream today.

So you guys are going to come up with some of the answers.

You guys are going to come up with some of the ideas and the concepts.

Okay.

So you got to be with me.

You got to have your fingers on the keyboard.

You got to be paying attention.

You’re going to learn a lot.

You’ll learn a lot about how this phase of web design works.

And you’ll just naturally get to see the tool in action as we do it.

Okay.

Now, can you do this stuff in men in Figma manually?

Absolutely.

I used to do it in Figma manually.

Wouldn’t want to be caught dead doing it in Figma.

That’s why the product exists.

Like never, you would never wait.

If you had to do this in Figma manually, I would say either your projects have to get a lot more expensive or you should, you should skip this step.

Okay.

You should stop being a professional.

You just skip this step.

It’s a pain in the ass to do it manually.

You don’t want to be doing this stuff manually.

Okay.

All right.

Go to the subject, please.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, if you guys don’t want any context whatsoever, there’s some people that don’t like context, but these people are still here.

Aren’t they?

They are.

Imagine that.

All right.

So here’s what we’re going to do.

I’m going to screen share.

We’re going to go to get frames.io slash account.

So just showing you the initial process of you would go here.

You would go to view details and downloads.

You would download the latest file.

That’s 1.3.2.

Okay.

You would unzip it.

It’s a zip file.

Don’t try to upload the zip file to Figma.

You want to unzip it.

That’s going to give you a fig file. .fig, right?

You go into Figma, you go to create new import, and then you can just choose the .fig.

Now I have it right here.

Frames for Figma add-on 1.3.2.

I’ve already imported it.

Okay.

But that’s it.

That’s all you have to do to get the tool accessible.

Right?

Now, what I’m going to do is I am going to duplicate the file for us, and we are going to open it, and I’m going to go with, this is essentially going to be, I was thinking like, what kind of business could we design a site for?

Right?

I just came up with a coffee shop, and I did a coffee shop for a couple of reasons.

One is there’s a lot of them.

Two is it doesn’t require a super complex website.

It’s going to be something we can just easily tackle.

It’s also a topic that everybody should fairly understand.

There’s no technical, I mean, there is, I guess, to some degree, but we can all help with a coffee.

You don’t need to know a lot.

Right?

It’s not like an astrophysics site or something.

So, very simple.

But also, there’s a gazillion of them, which means you can’t just, like, when we’re doing the copy part, this is the, this is why copywriters get paid big bucks.

Okay?

We can’t just put generic bullshit on here.

You can’t say what every other coffee shop says.

So, we’re going to have to do some brainstorming, figure out how can we make some semblance of like a unique, like, you know, or highlight the unique aspects of this coffee shop.

Okay.

So, I’m in the file right here.

What I’m going to do is I’m going to go down to the wireframe page.

Now, you’re going to notice, all right, there’s style guides, there’s documentation, there’s like lots and lots of stuff you could go through.

You could go start browsing the actual templates.

Okay.

We’re going to skip all of that.

You’re going to just skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip all the way down here to where it says website design.

There’s a mood board.

There’s a wireframe.

There’s a final design.

And all of them say this page awaits for your web design creation.

Okay.

We’re going to delete that.

What we have is a blank canvas from which to begin.

Now, I told you we’re going to be doing a coffee shop.

I want you to put yourself in a, in the shoes of a coffee shop owner right now, as we start to get into this, or like you’re, you’re going to, you’re going to come into the coffee shop space.

Now I’ve asked you, why are you getting into coffee?

I mean, this is crazy.

There’s a gazillion competitors.

Why are you getting into coffee?

You’re going to have to give me a good answer.

Okay.

Now, obviously you’re making this up, but give me an answer.

I mean, why are, why are we, why can’t they just go to Starbucks?

Why can’t they just go to some other coffee shop?

What, why your coffee shop?

What, what are you going to do that’s so special or different or whatever?

Give me some answers in, in the chat.

Like help me right now.

We, we got to make this coffee shop work.

This can’t just be Bob’s coffee, Bob’s boring ass coffee, right?

That ain’t going to fly.

All right.

I mean, maybe that actually would, maybe something as literal as that.

Bob’s boring ass.

Maybe that would work.

Okay.

But we’re not going to go that route.

Give me something that would make this coffee shop different, unique, better, more valuable.

Help me out.

Hmm.

Okay.

Accommodating dietary requirements.

Okay.

Like what?

Like what?

Like what?

What’s important to coffee drinkers?

Some, some coffee, not all coffee drinkers, obviously, but what’s important to some coffee drinkers in that regard?

Homemade flavor.

Ah, there we go.

Manny’s, Manny’s onto something here.

Organic coffee beans, no chemicals, no BS, family owned.

Okay.

Larry says we roast our own beans.

Okay.

Let’s go to the mood board right here.

Let’s just, let’s just drop some things in here.

Um, let’s go with, uh, let’s see.

Okay.

Let’s go to organic.

I like organic.

Let’s go to, uh, roast our own beans.

Okay.

No chemicals, no BS.

Okay.

We’re looking good here.

Um, brewed with purpose, uh, served with heart where every cup supports a sustainable future and people behind it.

Okay.

So there might be a, maybe a, a charity aspect to it.

Um, okay.

Coffee addiction.

Okay.

Uh, organic, a bunch of people saying organic.

Okay.

Um, no more, no chemicals.

You ship fresh.

Okay.

We’re doing a, a local shop, so we’re not going to necessarily ship it.

Um, people are going to come here, which now we, you have to also think of, um, what else goes along with a coffee shop?

What are people looking for outside of coffee?

Okay.

Coffee is one thing.

You got to nail the coffee thing because it’s coffee shop, but what else do they care about outside of?

Just coffee.

What do they care about?

What do they care about?

Um, let’s see.

Single origin.

Okay.

Uh, flavor.

Did it cartel free?

Um, okay.

No mold.

Passion matter.

Fair, fair trade and local.

Okay.

Um, okay.

Roast our own beans.

We could say like locally sourced, locally sourced.

I don’t even know if that’s a possibility.

Uh, I don’t know enough about coffee.

I’m not a coffee.

Yeah.

Aficionado.

Um, Rob says coffee and cigars.

That would definitely be a niche.

That would definitely be a niche.

Um, okay.

I’m thinking, yes, here we go.

Here we go.

Here we go.

Brendan, Brendan got it.

Brendan Tan got it.

Um, it is a, so when people want to come and spend time in a coffee shop, they’re looking for atmosphere.

Okay.

That, so we have to shape the atmosphere somehow, some way along with the coffee.

Cause it’s not, they don’t, they don’t just come for coffee, right?

Especially if they’re like a coffee snob kind of person, right?

They want to chill.

They want to sit around.

They want it to be a good environment.

Okay.

Um, so we, we have to think about the atmosphere, what we’re going to describe.

Okay.

So we’re just throwing some ideas in here.

All right.

And you could come in and you could throw a sample design, sample things that you like, whatever.

This is kind of what a good use of a mood board would be for.

We’re not going to do a whole copy discovery session and all of that, which we should do if this was a real project.

We’re just doing this kind of stuff on the fly.

It’s not the point points to demonstrate the tool and the process.

Uh, but we’ll do our best as we work through this.

Okay.

So what I’m going to do is I’m going to go to assets and remember, I said, you can look through the library and just start.

Oh, I like that hero.

Okay.

Let’s put that hero on the, Oh, I like these features.

Let’s put the, it’s not what you want to do.

It’s not, it’s not what I would recommend doing.

It’s not what I do.

It’s not, it’s just don’t do that.

Come to here, uh, in, in assets and type in site.

And you’re looking for this thing right here.

Okay.

Uh, and it’s called the site builder.

And this is a, uh, a unique tool that is in frames for Figma.

It’s not in Figma.

It’s just in frames for Figma.

And this is going to be like the backbone of the work that we are doing right here.

Now, immediately when I bring the site builder, that’s a component.

Okay.

I am going to hit shift a, and that is going to wrap that in a frame, an auto layout frame.

And I’m just going to say that this is my homepage.

Okay.

So I have a component inside of a frame.

Now for this, I need, uh, essentially no padding.

I’m not interested in padding.

I’m not interested in any gaps.

So I’m going to build that out.

Now, what you’re going to actually do with this site builder frame.

Okay.

Um, let’s go back to the file.

Right here.

You’ll see site builder in here.

Here is a, um, I’ll just collapse this.

Okay.

So here’s your home frame.

Here’s your site builder frame right here.

And notice that I’m able to just, I can just duplicate this a bunch.

And the reason I’m able to duplicate this a bunch is because I can just come in here and I can change it from a type of header to a type of literally anything else.

Okay.

So once you have the site builder component, the site builder component can morph into anything.

Okay.

So it can morph from a header into a hero.

It can morph from a hero into features.

It can morph into whatever.

So you’re really just counting sections.

And what you’re doing in the wireframing phase, the wireframing phase is not about design.

We don’t care about design.

We don’t care about any of that.

What we care about is the story, the structure.

So a story has structure.

It has characters.

It has things like that.

That’s what we care about when we’re doing the wireframing.

So we’re trying to figure out how do we want to tell the story?

And in what order do we want to tell the story in?

Now, obviously you need to have a header.

So that goes first, right?

Then there’s a hero section.

Then it starts to become a question of what’s next.

So the hero obviously is going to have your headline.

It’s going to have your hook lead.

What I call like a hook lead.

It’s like, it’s a lead paragraph, but it’s the, its job is to hook the person into reading the rest of the page.

If they don’t want to read the rest of the page, the rest of the page doesn’t matter.

It’s the whole thing has failed.

The headline and the hook lead have to be good enough to get the person to do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

Now, what is the next thing you want to show them?

You could do, um, problem.

You could, you could, you could introduce a problem here that other coffee shops have or that the coffee industry has or whatever.

You could go right into testimonial, social proof.

You could go right into features of the coffee.

What would we recommend here?

What would you guys, what should we do next?

Should we do social proof next?

Should we do storytelling next?

Should we do, what should we do next?

You guys, you guys come up with this.

Okay.

Let me know.

Uh, let’s go down in here.

See what else, uh, people are saying.

A lot of, uh, hitting on, on the word sustainability, uh, relaxed atmosphere, music, events.

Um, okay, good.

Live, live, live music.

All right.

Um, no cell phones, coffee shop with a community library.

Okay. there’s a lot of ideas in here.

Um, smooth vibes.

Okay.

All right.

Um, okay.

Features.

Amanda says features.

Amanda says features.

Social proof, story backgrounds.

Okay.

All right.

See, there’s actually, um, not necessarily a right or wrong answer here.

Okay.

Um, and actually what you might want to do is propose a couple different things.

So you could say to the client, what I recommend doing is this, but we could also go in this direction.

And this is where we’re going to get into the iteration side of all of this, but we’ll, we’ll start building this out.

Okay.

So what I’m going to do is take this one right here and we are going to go with, we’re going to do one that starts with social proof.

Okay.

So we can immediately go into social proof.

We’ll take this one and then we’ll go into storytelling.

So we go store, uh, social proof and storytelling.

Storytelling.

I would do probably with some content areas.

Um, so we’ll come up and we’ll choose content right here.

And we might even do two content areas back to back.

Okay.

Content and content.

Um, and don’t worry that the layout of these content areas is, is going to change.

Okay.

And we can see that it’s going to be easy to change, uh, as we do this.

Uh, what I also may want to do is, um, maybe experiment here because it’s a local coffee shop, right?

Anytime you’re dealing with a single location, local business that people want to visit.

And that’s like one of their, like, how can I experience the coffee?

How can I experience the atmosphere?

If I don’t even know how to get to the damn place.

Right?

So contact should be like very, very prompt.

Don’t make them navigate to a contact page necessarily.

You might want to think about putting this on the homepage.

Okay.

Um, now I actually need another thing down here, which is going to be a footer.

Okay.

So we’re going to say type footer.

Um, and maybe that’s enough for right now.

Okay.

We’ll just chill right here.

Okay.

Um, let’s go through and see now how we can swap these sections.

I’m going to leave the social proof here for right now.

Here’s our first content section.

And what I’m going to do is I’m going to come down here and see that I actually can just start experimenting with the, how I want to start telling this story.

Okay.

And actually what I think would be great for this is a nice big video.

Um, so we have social proof and then we have a video.

We’re going to have a headline for the video.

We’re going to have a little blurb about the video, but this video is something we’re going to craft.

We’re going to propose this to the client that we commission a video that really tells the story of this coffee shop.

And kind of, it’s going to be maybe a 90 second trailer or something.

And it’s really going to give people a glimpse inside.

It’s going to highlight the atmosphere.

It’s going to hit on the key points, the organic, the, all the stuff that we talked about earlier.

And that’s just going to be a really good intro into the experience on this website.

So immediately they’re going to see, um, a thing that hooks them in and lets them know they’re in the right place.

We’re going to start with copy in just a minute.

We’re going to get going on copy in just a minute.

Immediately social proof.

We hit them with social proof, which the first thing that they see other than our hook is, Oh, look, these other people, what are these other people in the community saying about this coffee shop?

And if those are really, really good testimonials, they’re for sure going to want to keep going.

Okay.

Then they’re going to watch the video.

So we’re, we’re crafting the story here, the narrative.

Then they’re going to watch the video.

They’re going to get the, the, the trailer, the teaser.

Okay.

Then they’re really going to start to get immersed.

Okay.

This content section right here.

Let’s keep that in content.

Let’s start to go down and see what else we want to do for our storytelling.

So echo Foxtrot gives us this golf hotel.

Okay.

I, because it’s atmosphere based.

And I, and I think a lot of this, the organic, the, this, that, I actually think those details of the actual coffee are going to be served better on a different page.

We’re going to allude to those things, but we’re not going to get into the detail of our coffee.

I think what we’re going to sell here is the atmosphere.

Okay.

We can sell the atmosphere along with hitting on the most important points of the coffee that they’re going to get when they come to this location and engage in this atmosphere.

Right.

And maybe a, maybe a section like this would actually do the trick because we get an opportunity to put four different vibe-y graphics in here.

But we also get a nice list of features.

That’s kilo.

So keep kilo in the back of your mind here.

Okay.

So kilo, there’s not enough content in that section for me to tell the story.

Maybe, maybe this one that’s going to require a lot of content.

I don’t know if I want the person to do that much reading right now.

Oh, this could be another one.

This could be another one here.

Something just dinged.

What just dinged?

Okay.

I don’t know.

I don’t know what that was.

Because this gives us an opportunity to do some, do some multi-graphic kind of things and a couple different.

Maybe, maybe this one.

Maybe, I’m starting to, I’m starting to like this one.

I’m starting to like where this is going.

Okay.

This is Oscar.

Let’s just look through a couple.

I’m, I’m, I’m torn between Oscar and kilo right now.

Um, that one’s decent, but no visuals.

I want visuals.

I’m going, I’m going, uh, I’m going Oscar.

We’re going to go Oscar here.

Okay.

All right.

And then let’s go see what we have for our contact sections here.

Okay.

Hmm.

We don’t have two locations.

Okay.

So, I mean, we could just remove one.

That’s fine too.

Uh, here’s Foxtrot.

That’s a multi-location frame.

I don’t necessarily want a contact form.

We might go with this one.

I’m liking Delta.

Hmm.

Hmm.

That one too is a possibility.

That was, you know, very simple.

Oh, Oh, Hey, Oh, okay.

Hold on.

All right.

Hmm.

Maybe this one.

Cause I, I like how it takes us to the edge to edge.

I like how it gives us a map in the background back there.

I like how it gives us our most important things, address, phone, email, all that good stuff is right up front and center.

Okay.

And then we have, uh, then we have our footer down here.

Okay.

So essentially let’s, let’s look through it.

Do we want to do anything different with our social proof?

Um, testimonial section, Bravo.

Oh, we could go lots.

Like if you’re heavy on social proof, we probably don’t need these.

Oh, this allows us, this is going to allow us to put our ratings in there as well.

Very important to highlight.

If you’ve got good ratings, you might want to highlight those.

Let’s, let’s go ahead and notice I can just delete, even though this is a component, I can just remove stuff.

It effectively hides it.

Um, but I can make easy adjustments like that.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

I like where this is going.

Let’s start getting some copy in here.

Now we obviously don’t have a logo for this coffee shop.

So we’re just going to leave, we’re just leave that in place.

Uh, we can come in and we can, we can start manipulating some of this.

Uh, so I can say something like home and then I’ll do coffee.

Um, and then I’ll do, uh, food maybe.

I don’t know.

What would they call food in a coffee shop?

Snacks.

Okay.

Um, and then like, uh, contact or something like this.

Now just to highlight this.

Okay.

These are menu items, right?

Let’s say you don’t want it to be a dropdown.

You can just untoggle this on a couple of these and those will not be dropdowns.

So we can signify what is going to be a dropdown.

What is not going to be a dropdown.

Um, very easy to do simple things like that.

Okay.

Let’s go ahead and let’s go out to unsplash.

Now we’re going to come up with our fake coffee shop, our fake coffee shop is going to need some imagery.

Now we’re, again, we’re not doing the design phase.

We’re doing the wire framing phase, but if, especially if you’re the one doing copy development, um, it can help at least in, you know, in my experience to have some of the vibe there with you.

You can do this in the mood board as well, but you can start putting this stuff into the wire frame as well.

Just start getting an idea of where certain images are going to be used.

Images are in fact, part of the story that you’re trying to tell.

Okay.

If you didn’t know, images are worth around a thousand words.

Uh, I have heard that before.

Um, so it can help.

It can help to put those things in.

Dad jokes are just terrible.

It’s just bad.

It’s just bad.

Um, all right.

So we’re going to go with coffee shop.

I don’t, I don’t, you know, I don’t know what kind of coffee shop vibes we’re going to get from unsplash, but we’ll see.

Am I logged in?

Cause I think I do have an unsplash pro.

Okay.

Okay.

Look at this.

Look at this little vibey little coffee shop here.

This one looks very busy and loud.

Uh, this one looks kind of, you know, whatever.

Okay.

Um, let’s go to new folder.

We’ll go to coffee shop, coffee shop.

Okay.

And we’ll just, we’ll throw this in there.

We’ll just get a couple ideas in here.

All right.

We’ll bring this.

Anyone with, anything with humans is always good.

Um, okay.

Let’s bring this in.

Uh huh.

Ooh, look at this.

This is going to be our exterior right here.

It’s called think coffee guys.

That’s our, that’s our, uh, brands here.

Okay.

I like this.

Okay.

Let’s bring that in.

It’s just, it’s very, it’s much easier when you’re designing a fake business.

Um, cause a lot of the work is already, you don’t have to hire a photographer to go in.

You could just, you know, it’s going to be good.

All right.

Let’s do this.

I would stay away from this kind of stuff.

This is, uh, that’s what every fucking coffee shop would put.

That’s, they would all do that.

Don’t do that.

Don’t do this.

Yeah.

Don’t do that.

Um, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Stan.

Oh, here we go. this is going to be good for our coffee page when we’re showing our, our locally sourced organic beans.

Um, okay.

Okay.

That’s just nice.

That’s nice.

I don’t give a little pricing hint at the pricing.

Okay.

We got enough there.

Um, there’s another little, that looks like a table. a lot of people would want to just sit and chill at and drink their organic, organic locally sourced coffee.

Okay.

Okay.

I think, I think we got enough, whatever.

Um, let’s go back into Figma.

All right, guys, now we get, we’re going to work on our headline, our hero headline.

Um, give me, give me some headline.

You guys give me some, and we’ll see what we have to work with here.

Okay.

Um, let’s see.

What is the best way to learn?

Okay.

We’ll do, we’ll do questions. at the end.

Uh, Kevin has a bricks.

Yeah.

Um, make sure they have hashtag Q and they’ll go into the queue and then we can, we can, um, we can, we can do it at the end.

You’re selling cats.

You cannot put a photo of cats.

All cat stores would have pictures of cats.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, let’s, let’s see here.

Uh, oh, you know what?

I want to, I guess, you know, it’s fine.

We can just put the full res.

This isn’t the web.

This isn’t the web.

I mean, just throw a full res photo in there.

It’s not the web.

Uh, where’s the, there we go.

Here we go.

Think coffee.

Okay.

We actually, um, do we even look through, do we even decide that that’s the hero that we want?

I’m not even sold on that.

That’s the hero that we actually want.

Um, let’s go to echo.

See what we got.

We’ve already got social proof.

So we do.

Oh, hmm.

Hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

Let’s, let’s go.

Let’s, let’s rock and let’s rock and roll with this.

All right.

So let’s bring this in.

Upload from computer.

Drop that in there.

Okay.

That should give us a nice.

And then I think what we’re going to want to do on this frame.

And then I’m going to go into my libraries.

I’m going to search for neutral and I’m going to say neutral, ultra light.

Let’s give it a nice little, very light background.

Just give it some structure.

Okay.

Uh, to differentiate it from here, especially because the image is touching the bottom of the frame.

Uh, that’ll give it some structure in there.

So this is a nice big little lead in here.

Okay.

And we got our social proof.

What is our hero heading going to be?

My friends, let’s go down and see if anybody has any good idea.

Fresh roasted beans.

No, a place for you to stop thoughts and enjoy life.

Okay.

Uh, start that course.

Okay.

All right.

Not many headline suggestions in the chat.

Guys, what are we doing?

We got 200 people.

We should, we should have plenty of suggestions.

By the way, I’m going to be, I have a whole, uh, in the inner circle, I have a whole copywriting series that is going to start being produced and released in January.

This is a topic and an area that people have heavily, heavily voted for.

Uh, I’ve got a lot of people saying, I suck at copy.

I can’t do copy.

I can’t even edit copy.

I can’t, I don’t, I don’t know how to even start with copy.

I don’t know.

Okay.

So we’re going to fix that for you.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Okay.

So there’s many ways to do a headline.

You can, you can do something very literal.

Um, like Larry says, fresh roasted beans.

Um, you could do something, but here’s the problem with fresh roasted beans is they’re not really coming to buy the beans.

They’re coming.

They can, they can buy beans, but that’s not really the primary reason they’re coming.

And that’s not what they’re looking for in a coffee shop.

Right.

Um, so then you can do something very abstract.

Like Jamie says, sip, savor, socialize.

Okay.

Um, you can combine literal and abstract as well.

Um, mm.

Okay.

So, oops, I zoomed in.

I don’t want to be zooming in.

I wasn’t zoomed at all.

Was I, you’ve been seeing the correct thing the entire time.

Sometimes, sometimes it’s easy to do with the mouse wheel on accident.

Unpretentious coffee, relaxed vibes.

Okay.

The atmosphere your coffee deserves, uh, healthy, organic energy, drink coffee.

Um, what more do you need?

Um, best beans in town.

Okay.

Uh, yeah, you guys do need some help with your, with your copy writing.

All right.

We’re going to start with Tommy.

Tommy put a suggestion in here that we’ll start with a place for you to stop thoughts and enjoy, uh, life.

Now, what I would probably do is, and this is where iteration really, really, really comes in with, with your, uh, with your copy writing.

Um, I’m going to leave it with this for now.

We’re going to revisit it and then we’re going to show how we can actually do very logical and safe iteration on aspects of our copy.

Right.

Um, okay.

We need a lead right here, a place for you to stop dots and enjoy life.

What is the lead going to be?

Which by the way, I want to make this large text instead of medium text.

If you don’t know frames for Figma, just like it essentially has automatic CSS inside of it.

Everything is tokenized.

Everything works just like it works in automatic CSS.

And so you can come in and just choose another variable like M goes to L.

And now I have large text here.

Now, can I adjust globally my type scale?

Yes.

Can I adjust globally?

Anything that you can adjust in ACSS?

Yes.

In Figma, you can do that.

Uh, we do that through token studio.

So right up here, I open token studio for Figma and I can start to, uh, customize.

Now you only need to come here when you’re customizing the values for things.

When you’re using the tokens, you don’t need to be in here at all.

You don’t need to, nothing in here matters.

In previous versions of frames for Figma, it mattered.

You have to do a lot of stuff in here, but now you’re just using the tokens.

Just like you saw me do with the font size.

You’re just using them natively in Figma.

So only token studio, when you’re changing values of tokens, if you’re just using tokens, you don’t need to be in a token studio.

Okay.

All right.

So what do we want as our lead paragraph?

Now our lead paragraph is what really hooks them, lets them know they’re in the right place.

And by the way, how would they know they’re in the right place?

If they read the headline, a place for you to stop thoughts and enjoy life, would they know they’re in the right place?

No.

So we have to pair this with a, like what we write right now for this hook is very important.

If we screw this up, the whole hero, they’re going to be lost.

I mean, what is God, they’re going to know it’s a coffee shop because they see a, photo of a coffee shop.

They’re going to assume it’s that, but they’re not going to have any other relevant information and certainly not any information that hooks them into coming here.

Right.

Or lets them know this is the coffee shop for them.

So go right back to the mood board.

Like remember these things that we mentioned, I’m pretty sure some of those should be either in the headline or in the hook.

Okay.

This is not rocket science.

Like if the main reason somebody might come here is because all the organic, all the coffee is organic, then you got to tell them that right off the bat.

If you hide that from them, you’re not a good copywriter.

Don’t hide that kind of stuff.

Right.

You got to give that stuff right out in the open.

All right.

A place for you to stop thoughts and enjoy life.

Cause I’m not sold on this headline.

So we’re going to come back to this, but it’s enough for now.

You got to put pieces together.

Right.

Okay.

So how do we want to do this?

We want to hit on a couple of things.

We want to hit on where this thing is located.

We want to hit on the, maybe the main reason that they should come here or the main two reasons.

And I’m narrowing down the main two reasons as all the coffee’s organic and it’s a great fucking vibe.

Okay.

So let’s, let’s just get something on the page and then we come back and you iterate and you develop and you reword and copy is not something that’s just, Oh, I wrote it.

There it is.

Okay.

And now we can move on.

It’s something that you constantly reread and you tweak and you, and then maybe you just completely write something new and a different iteration.

And then it all comes together at some point in the future.

And, you know, you just have to work there.

You don’t have a crystal ball.

Okay.

So let’s say, where is this coffee shop?

by the way, let’s say, um, midtown Atlanta.

It’s going to be in mid and some great, it’s great area.

Midtown Atlanta, uh, coffee shop, a, um, a local midtown Atlanta, uh, coffee shop with, I’m just getting something literal on the page right now.

A local midtown Atlanta coffee shop.

Uh, how about this?

A, a midtown Atlanta, a family owned midtown Atlanta, coffee shop, um, with 100% organic coffee.

And, um, a, I’m just going to use the most boring language right here.

Just to sign it as a token, essentially, um, with a great atmosphere.

Okay.

Uh, so we have to take great atmosphere and just, because we know that’s what we want to hit on.

We, we got to talk about the atmosphere, just like we had to talk about the organic coffee, just like we had to talk about the location.

Like I’m, I’m trying to check three different boxes with one sentence or two sentences, which is not always easy to do.

I did check the three boxes.

I didn’t check them.

Great.

Okay.

Um, I did hit on family owned.

I hit on the location.

I hit on a hundred percent organic coffee.

Great atmosphere.

You can’t use that’s bad copy.

It’s just terrible.

It’s, and the reason it’s bad is because it doesn’t say anything.

It just, Oh, it’s a great atmosphere.

Why, why is it a great atmosphere?

And I don’t think we have the answers yet.

I mean, somebody said, um, live music.

I don’t know if everybody wants live music in their coffee shop.

Um, they tend to want like, cause they want to have conversations.

Okay.

Um, with, uh, okay, just, let’s just, let’s just roll with this for a second with a hundred percent organic coffee and a, uh, in an atmosphere built for conversations with, uh, blah, blah, blah.

Okay.

I’m, I’m going to like conversations with people you love conversations with friends, conversations with the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, we, we got to keep iterating on this.

Uh, but we’re, we’re saying that the atmosphere is built for conversation.

And we’re not going to say that literally, even though it says that literally right now, we’re not going to say that literally.

We have to find a different way to say that.

Um, and, and I’m going to show you how you can start to bring AI into this to help you with ideas.

Okay.

And idea generation.

Um, and this is how you would use AI as you might use another copywriter who’s sitting next to you, not to write the copy for you, uh, but to help expand what you’ve already done or give you alternatives to what you’ve already done.

Um, we’ll get there.

Okay.

Let’s go back to chat and see if anybody has any ideas.

Okay.

Um, locally source coffee in Atlanta’s premier community spot for remote workers and creatives.

Um, save for the best of it.

So this is interesting, right?

Where we talk about, uh, for, for remote workers and creatives.

Now that could be an angle on why the coffee shop exists.

Maybe you almost decided, okay, we’re going to build a coffee shop that is almost like a second work spot.

It’s almost like a coworking location.

Okay.

If that’s the direction you go, then there would be a lot of things you would want to hit on that those kinds of people care about organic coffee.

Probably wouldn’t be that.

That would be maybe a nice bonus, but we’re building something around organic, which is, and conversation, which immediately we’re not in the coworking niche for coffee.

Right.

Uh, can’t really do both of those things at once.

We care about conversations.

And, and, and maybe what this story ends up telling is how everything is digital these days.

There’s not enough real face to face.

There’s not enough real conversation going on.

And this is the place that’s bringing that back.

This is the place.

See, now you start to figure out what the whole narrative and what the whole story is going to be, uh, about this coffee shop.

Now it’s easy for, we get, here’s the hard part of, um, actually doing this for real clients.

A real client of the BEVs, the BEVs of the world, they will come to you with their shitty ass coffee shop idea.

And you’re going to have to write copy for that.

Okay.

You can’t just make stuff up.

Like we’re, we’re just making stuff up because actually this business doesn’t exist, but it also goes to show why a lot of this should be done before the fucking business exists.

You can’t just be like, Oh, I’m going to build a coffee shop.

And then you actually build the open a coffee shop.

And then somebody goes into the marketing for it.

And they have to break it to you that, Hey, uh, we can’t market this dog shit coffee shop.

It’s just like everything else.

There’s you, you tied our hands here.

This is no, you’ve done nothing different.

You’ve done nothing special.

That’s really hard to break to the BEVs of the world, uh, who start businesses when they don’t know what they’re doing.

Um, they just thought, Oh, a car, I have money for a coffee shop.

I’ll open a coffee shop.

Yeah.

Sorry.

It’s a little bit, it’s a little bit more challenging than that.

Okay.

Um, but this, this goes to show why a lot of this should actually be done in the early stages of a business.

Now, maybe you do get this coffee shop where they’re not open yet.

They’re commissioning you for a website.

You could actually halt them in progress and, and help them sort some of this stuff out.

Uh, and they’ll end up opening a way better coffee shop.

This is what, by the way, being a consultant and not a pixel pusher looks like.

Okay.

Helping businesses figure this kind of stuff out.

This can also be done for like a rebrand of a, Hey, our coffee shop is, uh, you know, it’s, it’s getting mediocre results.

It’s not, you know, results haven’t been great.

Starbucks is eating us alive.

Okay.

Uh, we need to rebrand.

We need to, we need to reconcept this.

Okay. now we’re doing this kind of work.

Um, all right.

Great conversations are had with organic coffee in your hands.

Okay.

Uh, a place for you to unplug and enjoy life.

Okay.

Um, this direction is for conversations, not work.

Yeah.

Place for you to unplug and enjoy life.

And don’t coffee shop with a hundred percent organic coffee in an atmosphere, uh, and an atmosphere, uh, an organic coffee, organic coffee where you can un, unplug, uh, enjoy life.

Oh, how about, how about slow down?

I don’t, I don’t really know what like enjoy life, like, you know, how much of life are you really enjoying?

Like you’re enjoying the moment, right?

You’re, you’re not really, it’s not really going to transform your entire life, but you are going to enjoy the shit out of the moment.

What the time that you’re there where you can unplug, slow down, um, and go back to, okay.

Cause we’re, we’re trying to juxtapose like what is the present?

And then what, how did life used to be?

Okay.

When people, uh, actually talk face to face and stuff, uh, family, I’m a town, Atlanta coffee shop, a hundred percent organic coffee where you can unplug, slow down.

And, um, I’m still, I still want something around conversations.

Uh, that’s still not good enough.

It’s still not good enough, but we’re getting there because now we’ve replaced, like have a great time or whatever bullshit it said before with some specifics. like you can unplug, you can slow down.

Uh, and by the way, the people that like organic everything also tend to like that kind of thing.

Um, you know, they’re trying to be healthy in more ways than one.

Uh, so unplugging is, is good.

Slowing down is good.

Um, I don’t like to have meaningful conversations part, even though that we, we definitely have to hit on that, but here’s the thing.

We’re going to let our brain rest and we’re going to start going to other areas of this.

Right.

Um, and I don’t need this accent heading, so I’m going to go ahead and delete that.

All right.

So we’re going to come down now.

Um, by the way, let’s just talk about this.

This is, let me get a text over here.

Okay.

Um, if I was going to sell this wireframe, okay.

Minimum what we’ve just done without copy 299.

Okay.

Um, if we want to add the copy to this and I’ve got all the pricing that I tend to do in my, in my inner circle.

Um, I, I would typically charge somewhere around you.

I, I, I like average the word count per page, like get an estimate going.

Right.

Um, first there’s discovery that we already did for copy.

So a lot of this shit we’re having to brainstorm on the fly would actually already be done for you.

If you did the copywriting workbook and masterclass that I do with every client.

Uh, so there’s a workbook.

You lead them through the workbook.

The workbook puts all these answers down.

It’s like all the things you’re going to need to solve the, the, the, the test to pass the test.

You’re going to get all the answers in this workbook.

And then when it’s time to write the copy, you just pull shit out of the workbook.

Okay.

Um, and you get paid to do that workbook.

It’s like 1299 ish minimum.

Okay.

Um, we’ll just say, we’ll just say discovery, right?

1299.

Um, so you’ve already made that money.

You’ve already made that money to do a lot of this ideation kind of copywriting work.

Then you’re going to come in and you’re going to say 290 is for the wireframe.

This first wireframe right here.

Um, can we get this left align please?

Okay.

Uh, we’ll put, we’ll put this on top here.

So you get discovery, then your wireframe.

And then what we’re going to do is we’re going to bring this down and we’re going to say, uh, copywriting.

Let’s say, let’s say average 800 words a page, 600 words a page, uh, times 0.4.

Just for this page alone, 240.

Okay.

Uh, and you’re going to, this is baseline numbers.

This is like bottom of the barrel.

Okay.

Like really good copywriters making a lot more than this.

Now, um, I’m just putting numbers out here just so you can see, right?

Just so you can understand, get some context here for what we’re getting paid to do.

Cause none of this is, uh, is, is wasting your time.

None of this is extra time.

This is time you’re billing for, right?

Uh, it’d be nice if I put the, uh, if I made this format all the same, let’s take this and let’s put it before.

Okay.

So 1299 discovery 299 for this wireframe, not for all the wireframing for this homepage wireframe right here and for copywriting.

Okay.

So that’s where we’re at.

Um, now let’s come down here.

This stuff I can just start filling in and then we can come back later and see what can be added to it.

Right.

Uh, so what local mid town, uh, residents are saying, I’m just putting bullshit in here for right now.

Um, that just kind of fits the section.

Okay.

All right.

Um, a taste of what’s this place called again?

Think coffee.

Um, or you can say like, take a look, uh, inside.

Think coffee.

All right.

Remember, this is going to be a video right here.

All right.

And then we’ll come up with a blurb there.

What do we want to talk about here?

Okay.

Why people visit?

I’m just being very literal right now.

Why people visit?

Think coffee.

And I’m already thinking like why, why people make this start to, you can start to plant seeds for how you want customers to behave.

So I’m thinking like, um, why, why people make, think coffee, their daily morning visit or something like that.

Okay.

But maybe we can, we can just put that in.

Why people make, think coffee, their daily morning visit.

Um, I’m again, just get shit on the page.

You can iterate.

You can improve it later.

So here’s where I chose this frame.

Cause we actually have the ability to put points in here, like point by point.

And, and you can go with two, you can go with three and I’ll show you how to expand this.

In fact, we can probably do this right now.

Um, what I’m going to do is a main component, go to main component.

And it should, I should be able to find, um, let’s go to, I don’t know if that one did it.

Uh, let’s go to, Oh, that’s in the, it’s in the site builder.

That was in our content frame.

Maybe I clicked on the wrong one.

What I want to do is expand this for all instances of this.

Um, yeah, maybe it’s this content.

Let’s go to, go to main component for this content.

Here we go.

And then if I duplicate this inside the component, when I go back to my wireframe, so let’s go back to the wireframe.

Notice it’s duplicated there, but it’s really just give me an option of a third thing.

Cause I can delete it from this instance or like hide it from this instance, even though it’ll be there in as an option in all other instances.

Right?

So you, you can easily kind of expand the, uh, nature of these layouts.

By the way, we can disconnect them as a component and go rogue and do whatever we want to them.

But I want to keep them intact for as long as possible.

Cause there’s other things that I’m able to do, uh, which I can show you.

Okay.

So point one is, um, all coffee is 100% organic.

Um, and then we’ll talk about like the chemicals and all of this.

Now we’re not going to do all copy in this live stream.

We need to get onto doing some other pages and some iterations, but I just want to get started on this to also show you one of the superpowers of doing this in Figma.

Okay.

Um, all coffee is 100% organic.

We have, uh, all snacks are organic and gluten free.

Okay.

Just, I mean, just put for now, right for now.

It’s things we want to highlight, right?

So that people know when they come here, uh, they’re going to be super healthy. and then an atmosphere designed for conversation.

And this is where we’re going to start to tell the story of like, ah, you know, people don’t do face to face enough anymore that everybody’s stuck to their devices and did it.

Okay.

We’re going to, we’re going to use that spot to tell that kind of story.

Um, now we can come in and start plugging these in.

Cause we do want like to kind of see how the vibe is coming together.

Right?

So this is where you would just come in and put some supporting imagery.

Okay.

We’ll throw that in and you can start to see, and by the way, these frames are, are available in bricks.

So when you go to build them, you’re just going to plop them in and essentially you’re, you’re done.

You, you, you drop the content in, you do whatever the designer did and then you’re good to go.

Um, let’s put another one in, give us a nice little vibey, uh, feel here.

Okay.

There’s that one.

And let’s go to this one right here as well.

You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to do anything that I’ve done so far.

Right?

Uh, you don’t have to be a Figma master to do anything.

We always need people.

You always need people in there.

Okay.

Anything with people is better than no people.

Okay.

Great.

So we’ve got that in.

We’ve got our main points here.

Um, this is a larger marketing headline that introduces the next column.

Okay. so why people make think coffee, their daily morning visit.

Um, this is going to be the, going to be the starter blurb about why people deserve to get, um, deserve to have a place where they can get back to face to face interactions, get off devices, get off devices, yada, yada, yada, yada.

Okay.

It’s just, I’m making notes.

This is what I often do when I’m like in the early phases of copy.

I make notes about things that come to me, not as real copy, but about as like, ah, when I go back to that, I’m like, Oh yeah, that’s what I wanted to say here.

Okay.

Let me now actually craft the copy.

Okay.

Um, but I’m kind of choosing what each spot is going to be for.

I’m assigning like a purpose to the, to the spot.

Okay.

So I’ve got vibe photos.

I’ve got some purpose copy.

I’ve got some sample headlines.

Okay.

Um, this area is going to hit on the aspects of the atmosphere while again, highlighting features of the coffee, like locally sourced family owned low chemical, uh, et cetera.

Okay.

Great.

So that’s going to go along with the video.

That’s going to go there.

Okay.

Now let’s say that we wanted to iterate on this.

Okay.

Um, let me zoom out here.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Hold on.

Okay.

Let’s go back in.

Let’s come down.

Okay.

Excellent.

One second.

Okay.

What is Figma doing to me?

Where have you put my things?

Figma?

Where have you put my things?

Okay.

Here is my home.

Here is my home.

Where is this home?

Where did this home go?

I don’t know where that home went.

Figma canvas.

I’ve never said, okay.

So first of all, does anybody else, has anybody, the one negative thing I’m going to say about Figma, their latest redesign.

Um, I don’t like it.

I don’t like some things that they’ve done.

Okay.

We’re going to bring this in.

And if Tommy’s in the chat, Tommy, let me know, give me a helping hand on why my, I don’t even know what, I don’t even know what Figma canvas does.

Honestly.

Hmm.

Okay.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

The thing is, is what’s crazy is that it does in fact duplicate it.

I know I put another frame up here.

It also zooms me somewhere, which I don’t like.

Even if I’m way zoomed out when I do it, it doesn’t do it.

Maybe we’ll get, um, I think the chats.

Yeah.

Chats still going.

Hopefully I didn’t get disconnected.

Um, all right.

We’ll do, we’ll do a, uh, hashtag Q for while we wait on Tommy.

You said to manually set the X and Y values to zero.

Um, home.

X, Y.

Yeah, I know I’m doing that with the zoom, but, uh, no, you don’t know.

You can use the free version of Figma and you can use the free version of tokens to everything is, it doesn’t require any paid add-ons.

Um, I know that there’s these X and Y values, but I don’t know what that’s actually doing.

Uh, on a duplicated frame.

Okay.

Well, let’s duplicate it one more time and then try to do, is that what you mean?

X and Y like that?

I don’t know what you mean.

I thought I renamed that.

Didn’t I rename that?

Did I never rename it?

Okay.

Let’s rename it while we’re here.

Coffee shop.

Um, yeah, look at the, look at the coordinates on this thing.

Yeah.

There’s this one, but that one doesn’t exist.

It’s what’s weird.

It doesn’t.

Okay.

So watch this shift to takes me, takes me there.

Right.

That’s what I’ve been doing.

That’s why I’m like, where is it?

Cause when I do shift two on this one, it’s, uh, it zooms to the selection, which is non-existent.

Okay.

Delete Figma canvas.

Shift two.

I swear it’s not actually, this one is a hundred percent there.

Okay.

Now, okay.

Now it’s, now it’s, now it’s fine.

All right.

The Figma canvas thing was, uh, was messing it up.

Okay.

So let’s come in.

All right.

Point I wanted to make before all that happened.

Okay.

Remember we said we don’t like, we’re, we’re not sold on this headline.

Maybe the client is or whatever, but we’re not, we’re not really sold on it.

Okay.

Um, so a place for you to stop thoughts and enjoy life.

This has a family owned Midtown Atlanta coffee shop with a hundred percent organic coffee, where you can unplug, slow down and have meaningful conversations.

Um, like the old days.

Um, there you go.

I was trying to, I knew I’d figure out a way to finish that.

Okay.

And then we can take the ellipses off.

All right.

That’d be good enough for now.

All right.

Let’s see.

Hmm.

So, we’re going to try a, there’s a, a, a formula for writing headlines.

Very common.

Uh, which is you can, you can get this without that.

You can get this without that.

Right.

And so just an example of this, just an example of this would be something like, um, I’m not saying this is going to be the headline.

I’m just, this is an example of a, get this without that headline.

Okay.

Uh, this, and this is going to be a bad example of it, but it’s going to give, it’s going to be an example.

Uh, you got to start with bad copy to get to good copy, by the way, just, just so you’re, you know, just so you understand that good copy doesn’t just, you don’t just shit out good copy.

Right.

Um, you got to get something bad on the page, then you can make it good.

Uh, so delicious coffee without the, uh, without the harmful chemicals.

Okay.

This, this is just an example of, this is not what we would go with, and this is not a good headline, but you can get this.

You’re going to, you’re, when you come here, you’re going to get this delicious coffee, right?

Without these things.

Like, and the, and the, the, this, the thing you’re going to get should be something they care about.

And then the thing that they’re going to do without is something that they are actively trying to avoid as a human being in life as a customer.

Okay.

Um, now again, we’re, we’re in a juxtaposition of do we, are we selling coffee or are we selling the atmosphere?

Can we sell both at the same time?

That would be ideal as you sell both at the same time.

You could, you come up with a headline that sells both at the same time.

Coffee and conversations.

Um, now, and I’m not saying that a get this without that headline is actually appropriate here, but what we can do is, uh, we can, we can iterate again.

Okay.

So all I’m doing is, is command D, right?

And it’s giving me multiple instances of home.

And this is one thing that you absolutely positively cannot do in a dev environment, uh, that you never should do.

And keep in mind, by the way, we haven’t had to deal with WordPress.

We haven’t had to deal with hosting.

We haven’t had to deal with local verse live dev URLs, um, setting up any, any, like all we’re doing is wireframing here.

All we’re doing is copy.

We’re free to do this very cleanly right here in a design tool.

We don’t have to mess up a dev environment.

We don’t have to make any other decisions.

We don’t all, we’re able to, we’re free to just do the thing that we’re getting paid to do right now, which is UX and copy.

Uh, and I can have multiple iterations of every single page and I can get through my ideas and my thoughts.

And it’s great.

It’s fantastic.

And what’s good about this iteration process like this is the things you thought about initially, or the things that somebody else contributed, they can live on in, into like indefinitely.

You don’t have to overwrite them.

You don’t have to get, you could just, this is going to be my homepage iteration straight across.

There could be 17 versions of this.

Okay.

When the SEO guy is going to come in.

Oh, well you guys got to put some, uh, on page optimization in here.

Okay.

Well, let’s do that in a new iteration.

So we’ll make a new iteration and we’ll take the copy that we have.

That’s great for sales.

And we’ll see what we can plug in, in terms of, uh, on page optimization for SEO.

Boom.

You do that in a separate iteration.

You don’t have to overwrite anything.

You don’t have to lose anything that you already did.

Okay.

You guys under, under understanding this iteration process.

Okay.

So, um, coffee and conversations, um, as they were meant to be.

Mm.

Mm.

That one’s got some flavor.

That one’s got some flavor.

Coffee and conversations as they were meant to be.

And then, um, think coffee is a, and so I’m just iterating on this a little bit.

Think coffee.

Cause I want to reiterate the brand name right here, just so they know where they’re at.

I know there’s going to be a logo right here, obviously.

Uh, but it’s good.

Think coffee is a midtown Atlanta coffee shop with a hundred percent organic coffee where you can unplug, slow down, have meaningful conversations like the old days.

God damn.

This is really coming together.

This is really coming together.

Okay.

We got this.

We go.

Okay.

You get the point, right?

Now you could go off and say, all right, I’m going to do my about page now.

All right.

Where do we do that?

All right.

Well, I can come down here and, uh, I can just go back to my assets and I can go to site builder.

Now I could decide, do I want to use, like, do I just want to do this?

Right.

I could come down cause I have kept all of the components intact.

Okay.

So look, I can just come down and say about, and I’m free now to say, all right, this header is going to stay.

Um, but what we want to do on our sub pages is we want to swap up our hero.

Um, so the question is like, what hero do we want to swap to?

Me, me, maybe something like this.

Maybe, maybe this is going to be our sub page hero.

Okay.

So that’s going to be our about, uh, I do want to keep, I do want to keep our testimonials and look, I’m just going to use arrows on the keyboard.

I’m just going to shuffle them down.

I don’t want them to be the first thing on the, on the sub pages.

Um, do I want this content section?

No, maybe I want, uh, maybe I want a little bit of a different content section here.

So now I’m going to do something like I’ve got left align text over here.

Um, let’s go with golf.

That’s a little, uh, it doesn’t have what I want.

Okay.

Uh, mm, mm.

Okay.

Okay.

Maybe, maybe something like that.

Uh, then we’ll go down and we’ll say, maybe we want a little bit different content here.

Um, or do we want features?

Maybe now we want to move into a whole different category of content.

Maybe we want to go with features here.

Now we want to start sectioning out and showing like the features of the environment, the features of the coffee, maybe actually two different feature sections for this. we want to do features of the coffee, features of the environment, atmosphere.

Maybe, maybe we’ll save the coffee details for a coffee page.

Okay.

Um, let’s just, let’s focus on the environment here.

So we’ll go feature section.

Bravo.

What, how do we want to, we want images to focus on.

So Charlie, I’m going to mark Charlie in my head.

Hmm.

Do we want to do like an alternating kind of traditional alternating concept, or we have a little bit more room to talk.

So keep Delta in your head, maybe Delta.

I don’t think an icon, like icon features are not going to go well here.

Um, so we’re going to skip anything that has to do with icons.

I’m going to keep Delta in my mind.

I got Delta locked in right now in the back of my mind, but I’m just going to go through and see if anything promotes any, uh, Ooh, Ooh, we could do something like this where, okay.

We’re going to do a contact page next.

And I want to show you the form builder.

Um, this, I like, I like this kind of frame where it gives you a central visual, and then you can talk about the thing around it.

Like you, you know, all your talking points kind of surround the visual.

Uh, that’s November.

I’m still thinking Delta might be a good, a good one to, to do first though.

Okay.

Let’s stick with Delta for now.

Well, I don’t know, man, this, there’s Sierra, a lot of ways we could go. here.

A lot of ways we could go.

That’s too modern.

Too modern.

Oh, I don’t think so.

Oh, hold on.

Hold on.

Hold on.

We can get a little.

Yeah.

This would be able to tell more of a story with each main feature.

What would features be of the atmosphere?

Right.

Um, cozy.

Uh, comfortable, uh, seating design, uh, comfortable seating.

I’m trying to think of all the things I complain about in coffee shops.

Like, you know, you go to sit in those hard chairs.

Ah, nobody wants to do that.

Right.

Comfortable seating.

Um, something about the vibe, something vibey.

Okay.

Uh, again, again, you just got to put, if you don’t know exactly.

Now, if you did the discovery, right, if you did the workbook, you’d already know exactly what to put here.

Uh, but when you’re coming up off the spot, you’re just gonna have to put something as filler for right now.

Um, but we want to hit on comfortable seating.

We want to hit on something vibey.

Uh, what else, what else would be there?

Um, how about, how about this?

Um, so the music that we play, you know, there’s always light music and coffee shops.

It’s all local artists.

Okay.

Music from local artists.

Artists.

Okay.

And again, we’re not, I, you get that this overflows the tab and not worried about design right now.

We’re worried about structure of the narrative and we’re worried about getting some copy in place.

Okay.

Uh, comfortable seating, something vibey music from local artists.

What else do people care about?

Help me put, throw, throw some things in the chat. post some things in the chat.

Um, the ampersand is beautiful.

Uh, it, that’s just the ampersand from, uh, whatever.

I forgot, forgot what this, uh, typeface is, but yeah, it is.

It’s a very nice one.

Meaningful conversations with a friend deserve a hand brewed coffee in your hand.

Uh, that’s, that’s decent.

That’s decent.

That is decent.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

We put Adderall in our coffee.

That’s actually, that would be fantastic for, um, for, for that coworking coffee concept that we talked about.

Right.

That would be, yeah, you could do like, uh, there could be a, uh, an Adderall one, uh, maybe a meth one, you know, like, uh, might get shut down, but damn, I mean, the productivity out of that kind of place would be off the charts.

Uh, you probably also get very good reviews.

Okay.

Um, let’s see.

I understand now already seen the videos.

Okay.

I think you’re talking to somebody else.

Um, art from, art from local artists, private booths.

Okay.

Um, music, music.

I’ll just say, how about this?

Local.

This is how you combine two things, local music and art. right.

So that, that gives us an opportunity.

We can show up cause you can’t put a picture of music, obviously.

So we put a picture of the art on the walls, but then the blurb down here, which is a unique to every instance of, of these, right.

Uh, allows you to talk about the local music as well.

Ooh, perfectly brewed workspaces.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Okay.

Actually, I know, you know what?

I don’t, a perfectly brewed environment.

Right.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

We’re getting there.

A perfectly brewed environment, comfortable seating, something vibe.

He goes here, local music and art.

What else do people care about?

I, the wifi, I know a bunch of people said wifi.

That’s going to be a, it’s, that’s like a, well, one, you know, we are telling the narrative of like a disconnecting of going back face to face, yada, yada, yada.

Um, you, I mean, you, you could, you could, uh, almost set a culture of like, nobody works here.

You’re not going to see, I, I would almost go that angle.

It’s, it’s, it’s ballsy.

It’s, it’s good.

It’s ballsy.

Okay.

Not easy to make that decision, but I think in a world where every coffee shop you walk into, it’s 50 fucking laptops.

Okay.

I would almost make it as like, you could come here.

If, if the culture is around like conversations, the culture could be around conversation with strangers, but it’s actually an environment where it’s easy for you to come in and talk because that’s the culture of the place.

It’s not everybody’s not there to do their own thing.

And to put in headphones and to work.

Right.

I’m just saying, if you want the concept to be different than what’s going on in life right now, that would be maybe a, something that you establish. maybe you also say no wifi, maybe, maybe, no wifi.

Like, Hey, Hey, you want to come here.

You, you better have a good ass data plan.

Okay.

If you want to come here.

Uh, cause we’re not, we’re not condoning that necessarily in this, in this environment.

Just saying, maybe, maybe it’s a winning, maybe it’s a winning concept.

When they zig, you got a zag.

That’s what I, you know, it’s, it’s very, it’s like one of the top principles.

When they zig, you got a zag.

You can’t, you can’t like, man, if we just make the same environment that they can get down the street, it ain’t going to work.

They’ll just go down the street.

Hate to tell you, but Starbucks got a lot more money than you, my friend for, for marketing, for all this shit.

You’ve got to create a different experience.

Then you don’t need all the money.

Right.

If you’re going to, if you’re going to out Starbucks, Starbucks, you’re going to need a shitload of money.

Okay.

You gotta, you gotta beat them with something else.

Okay.

There are coffee shops already like that in Finland and South Korea, and they’re gaining wide popularity with, with books included.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That might be good.

Okay.

You, you just, we’re, we’re getting the picture of how this stuff comes together, not just from a marketing and copywriting standpoint, but from an actual business standpoint.

And it, it, it, I think it proves a point of the decisions a business has made in how they’re going to do business bleed right into the marketing.

I actually did a post, um, and the copywriting.

I did a post on this a while back.

I can’t remember.

Cause I do posts like this all the time.

I can’t remember if it was in the inner circle or on social or whatever, but it talked about, in fact, let me see if I can find it real quick.

Uh, because it would be worth looking at.

Cause it kind of, it kind of talks about this point, but I mean, I could have put it in a number of different places.

Um, I don’t know that it was pricing and money sales and closing marketing.

Uh, I don’t think it’s in, Oh, it is.

It is.

I did put it in here.

Almost as like a training.

That’s not a training.

Um, it’s called the fiction marketing trap.

Okay.

So I call it fiction marketing.

Let’s, let’s, let’s get this big.

So you guys can actually see it.

Okay.

Here you did.

The real problems occur when you’re tasked with marketing a boring product at a misaligned price point in a highly competitive environment, right?

Or a high competition environment.

Um, and I said, newsflash, this is what most of your clients will task you with, right?

Cause they’re, businesses are just notorious for being super vanilla.

Uh, and this is the fork in the road for you as a marketer.

You can either take a left, you can take a right.

Okay.

So we talk about the importance of storytelling, right?

If the product service is truly valuable, unique, compelling, effective, fun, and built for a good reason, all you have to do is tell the nonfiction story of, why it exists.

You can do nonfiction marketing.

That’s fantastic.

There’s no better kind of marketing than nonfiction marketing.

The, the reason so many people find this to be difficult, and I even find it to be difficult.

When you’re doing client work, you are asked to do fiction marketing because you have to talk up a turd.

Like it’s, it’s just, I’m sorry.

You have a boring ass business and it doesn’t do anything special and it doesn’t do anything that anybody else doesn’t already do.

How, what do you want me to say about it?

If I’m going to say something about it, I’ve got to make something up.

That’s fiction marketing.

You don’t want to be in the business of doing fiction marketing.

You want to be in the business of doing nonfiction marketing.

So if you’re starting a business or building a business, you should focus on what is, what is unique?

What is compelling?

What is effective?

What is fun?

What, what reason is it built for?

Why you verse them?

If you can’t answer that question in a really compelling way, marketing is going to be really, really difficult, really hard, really hard.

And if you’re not a good fiction writer, then you’re not even going to be able to do it at all because it’s going to require fiction writing.

So this is, and this is where, again, if you are going to say, Hey, my agency is going to be more of a consultancy than anything.

Yeah, we can design websites.

Yeah, we can build websites.

But when a client comes to you, you have to be able to tell the client, I can’t market this right now.

You guys have to do something different.

You guys have to do something important, noteworthy.

I can’t note on it.

It’s not remarkable, right?

If nobody wants to remark on it, that’s the, that’s where the whole word remarkable comes from.

You got to tell clients that sometimes you got to be like upfront with them.

Like Bev, this is vanilla shit, Bev.

Okay.

We need, we need a, we need a different flavor.

Um, now if they’re not going to get on board with that or they can’t get on board with that, you, you have a decision to make.

Are you going to say, okay, I will sign up for writing a bunch of fiction.

Or are you saying, I don’t, I don’t think this is a good fit.

I’m going to, I’m going to go find clients who are actually doing something cool, who are actually doing something meaningful.

That the, again, this is why, or what kind of client are you looking for?

If the number one thing with your client that you’re looking for, the number one attribute is they have money and they’re willing to sign on a dotted line.

That’s not really a good way to find clients.

Okay.

You want to find clients that are doing really cool things because then your job is going to get one, much more fun, but two, way easier.

It’s way easier to write nonfiction than it is to write fiction.

Way easier.

At least for me.

Now, some people are just, they’re fiction people.

Okay. but even if you succeed at writing fiction marketing, you kind of failed.

You failed the consumer because the consumer is just getting tricked by the fiction.

You don’t want to be in that business, even if you’re good at it.

So, um, yeah, that, that’s the whole point of this, this writeup.

I, again, if you haven’t read this writeup yet, um, sometimes just reading something by the way is more valuable than watching a video.

So I, I would go check that out.

All right.

Let’s go into, uh, I want to show a couple of things.

Okay.

Uh, so we’re going to go one, one, let’s just look at this.

And by the way, this about can have multiple iterations.

Okay.

You can, you can, you can move things around on some of these iterations, right?

And give the client or the team or whatever, or yourself, multiple different options for how you want to organize, how you want to tell the story, the photos and visuals that are going to be used.

You cannot do this in a dev environment.

You cannot do this in a dev environment.

I mean, you can, but you’re going to royally screw it up.

You’re going to royally.

It’s going to be an absolute disaster.

It’s going to take way longer.

It’s going to be way more expensive.

You’re going to have to clean it all up at some point.

Okay.

You just, this is a dev environment is not for this kind of work period.

And this is why you want to show up to a client meeting and be able to come in here and bring this full screen.

Right.

Hit play on this.

Go through it.

Right.

Go through it and, and be able to come in here and put notes on it.

Okay.

Like this.

Okay.

Client likes X, Y, Z, but not ABC.

Okay.

But not ABC.

Right.

And you’re, you’re like dynamically leaving.

It’s already built for all of this.

And then your team is able to read the notes and yada, yada, yada.

And then you’re making the iterations and a design tool.

Okay.

So there’s that side of it.

Right.

You saw, I can keep going very easily on.

Now we’re doing services.

Now we’re doing our location page.

Let’s do a contact page.

And I want to show you a part of the contact form.

Okay.

Let’s go with, I’m just going to duplicate this about, we’ll bring it down here.

And awesome.

We’ll name this contact.

Okay.

So this is going to be our contact page.

All right.

So what we’re going to do is we’re going to decide whether we want, and I’m going to come in to contact right here.

And I just want to figure out, do we want our contact section to actually be the hero?

Or do we want a hero on the page?

Remember, this is not a multi-location business.

I think this can actually just be our hero.

Right.

So I can delete that.

I can delete this.

I can, I’m going to leave social proof.

I’m going to actually change this to an FAQ.

FAQ.

Okay.

Cause contact page would be good.

You know, maybe they want to contact us just to ask us a question.

Well, what if their question’s already answered in the FAQ?

So put an FAQ there.

In fact, I want to move the FAQs up.

And what we will do is we’ll come in and let’s go to libraries.

Let’s go to neutral.

And let’s put a little background on there.

Okay.

And by the way, you can come in, even with like the accordions where, let me show you this real quick.

Okay.

You can choose whether it’s open or closed.

Right.

So they, they, all of these things have little hidden nuggets in them.

So I don’t, I’m not even saying, okay, this is like a placeholder accordion.

It’s actually a real accordion where I can say like question number one, I can actually map out what all of our Q and a is going to be.

This is the answer to question number one.

And I can do two, three and four and blah, blah, blah.

I can, I can build out the entire FAQ so that when the person who builds it doesn’t have to go, where’d you guys put the FAQ answers and questions again?

It’s right there.

It’s just sitting there in, in the actual file, but check this out.

Okay.

Um, so inside we have the, there’s a whole form builder in here that Tommy has built and it’s based off of these input types.

So notice that I can have different types of inputs.

I want to show you all these.

Like for example, there’s no phone input in here.

What if we want people to be able to put, uh, their phone number in, um, you can actually come in and say text and go to phone and it’s going to change it to a phone input.

Okay.

And I can command Z that back email.

This actually isn’t an email.

I don’t think I can change it to email.

And now it’s going to have my email placeholder.

You can also choose other things about it.

Let me choose this right here.

Um, so obviously we have light and dark styles, depending on if you’re building a light form or dark form, just like an ACSS.

Um, we can have, whether you’re showing the label or hiding the label.

Do you want hint text to go with it?

Do you want it to have an icon in the input?

Now I will just tell you, if you’re going to like wireframe a format, and this comes in really handy when you’re doing more complex forms, um, getting just to some inputs, like having, uh, this input with the icon in there and a text label underneath.

And then if you are going to componentize this and add some switches, like you would spend hours on just this one thing.

It’s actually to the point where most people don’t wireframe forms because it’s such a pain in the ass.

But we’re here.

There’s no excuse not to.

There’s no excuse not to because it’s so easy.

Okay.

Um, so this is, uh, there’s a bunch of different input types.

Uh, you can put them in columns.

You can do whatever you want to do here.

Just using Figma’s native layout tools.

Right.

Uh, but really, really, really good, good, uh, form builder.

Okay.

So there’s our like contact page.

Okay.

Uh, get in touch.

Right.

And then you’ll put all your copy here, but here’s your reviews again, yada, yada, yada.

Um, I like this because it gets them right to, it’s not like a hero.

And then they have to find the actual contact information.

Um, and I would obviously want to add in, I might replace these bullets with like the, uh, let’s do phone.

Uh, let’s do address.

Okay.

And this copy is going to essentially describe where, uh, the place is located most likely.

Then they have their FAQs and then they have more social proof.

And that’s really all that needs to be there on our contact page.

Okay.

Um, and so now as you see, I’ve got homepage with multiple iterations and about page with multiple iterations, a contact page with multiple iterations.

We’re just putting a bunch of ideas together.

We’re getting our copy flowing.

We’re getting how we want to tell the narrative.

We don’t have to keep going with this because it’s more of the same.

Um, just want to give you the idea of how this works.

Now, what part of what we did so far requires extensive Figma knowledge?

Nothing.

What part is difficult?

Nothing.

Just look at the speed and the flexibility.

Okay.

Anybody can do this.

Now, if you want to start disconnecting these and start custom manipulating the layouts and things like that, which you can absolutely do.

You’ll need to know more about Figma at that point.

Okay.

Um, that’s really it though.

When you get to the UI design phase, you’re going to go take this to high fidelity design, which by the way would be done.

Not here.

You don’t transfer these into high fidelity design.

You come down to this final design tab.

You bring those in and then you start working on the UI here, which by the way, preserves all of the wireframes.

We’re doing it in this kind of tool allows you to do is preserve every step of the process.

Okay.

Um, which is very, very, very beneficial.

So you do all the high fidelity UI design in the final design area down here.

Um, everything is great.

It’s, but again, when you get to the high fidelity design, yes, you are going to know, need to know more about how Figma works.

Okay.

But like I said, what is the price on this that we just made?

Okay. $300 per page.

That’s wireframe.

Not now.

I don’t, not per instance.

Okay.

I’m charging 300 bucks to wireframe out. your homepage.

And yeah, there’ll be multiple instances as we work to the final, uh, thing, but getting there is going to cost $300, right?

$300 for the about page, $300 for the contact page, $300 for the coffee page, 300.

Okay. this is just extra money, right?

That’s actually a very important part of the process.

You could see why it’s a very important part of the process.

Then let’s say $240, $250 for copywriting for each of those pages.

Okay.

You see how things are starting to add up here.

We already put $1,300 in the bank from discovery.

The UI is now going to be maybe $400, $500 per, per screen, per high fidelity page, homepage about, then you’re going to get the dev in there.

This is how professional projects are put together and priced.

This isn’t the, let me whip up the budget site.

And if you want a future in web design, by the way, let me just hint at this.

You should already know it, but let me hint at it.

If you want a future in this industry, you cannot do the same level of work that AI does.

Okay.

AI, all of the people who are like, let me just, I’m going to skip all this.

Nobody needs all this.

I can just, I can just whip it up in, in bricks.

Okay.

Those are going to be the people first replaced. replaced by AI because they’re not doing anything all that important.

They’re not crafting a narrative.

They didn’t sit around really thinking about how they’re going to tell the story for this company, how they’re going to put these pages together.

They’re just like, ah, I asked when nobody needs to do all that.

Plus my, my clients can afford all that, you know, and let’s just go into this territory because people will say, I can hear the excuses right now.

Kevin, a local coffee shop can’t afford to pay you this kind of money.

Kevin, Kevin, oh, oh, they can’t afford not to.

All the things that we just talked about.

You know what?

If they don’t pay me, you know what they’re going to end up with?

A boring ass coffee shop.

That’s what they’re going to end up with.

And it’s going to be out of business like every other boring ass coffee shop in six months.

If they don’t want that to be their story, they better scrape the fucking money together to do it the right way.

This is the, this is the message you have to get across, not just to your client, but to yourself.

Cause so many of you are making these, this excuse for your client.

Now we’re getting into agency business stuff, bottom line, baseline, foundational stuff.

You have to be able to make this argument or you’re dead in the water.

You cannot come into this game saying a coffee shop can’t afford a $10,000 website.

Okay.

They can’t afford not to have a $10,000 website.

Listen, and, and everything that goes with the website, because all the stuff we’re doing for them, as far as copy and ideation, uh, and how this business is actually going to operate and what the culture of the business should be.

This is going to get baked into the entire business.

Everything that they do.

This is a business that let’s say it’s your mom, because I always find who can, who do we want to protect?

Well, we want to protect our mom, right?

Okay.

Your mom is about to take her savings, her life savings.

And she just got this, you know, harebrained idea to start a coffee shop.

You going to let her just sign a contract for three grand a month for this local space.

That’s what she’s about to sign for three grand a month.

Remember Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, they can’t afford a $10,000.

They can’t afford this thing that you’re doing right here.

$10,000.

That’s crazy work for a, for a coffee shop.

Meanwhile, they’re signing a $3,500 a month contract for the space.

They’re buying $30,000 worth of equipment and chairs and all this other shit.

They’re paying an interior designer to come in.

God knows how much to, to actually create a vibey experience here.

Or maybe they’re just really good at that.

And they’re doing it themselves.

Okay.

It’s a lot of time being spent.

It’s a lot of invested emotion that they’re about to put into this business.

They’re about to open up shop.

They’re going to have to get a couple of staff members to come in here.

They’re not cheap.

Okay.

Look at all this stuff they’re investing in.

And then, but when it comes to selling the thing, oh, well, they can’t afford that.

They, they, they can’t possibly scrape together 10 grand for that.

Right.

They scraped it together for everything else.

Why can’t they scrape it together for you?

Right.

Quit selling yourself out of the project.

That will be the first step.

Second, don’t let them make that excuse when they come to you.

Okay.

On these sales calls, you, this is the attitude that you have not, you don’t have to be this in their face about it, but the entire attitude of the call is like, even before you get to price, when you get to price, you can’t afford to not hire me.

You can’t afford to go hire some Joe Schmo budget dude down the street.

Cause your whole business, like, it can go one of two ways.

My friend, it can go to a really good place or it can go to mediocrity.

And most of these people, you’re most of these bums.

Okay.

Out here are going to take you to mediocrity.

They’re going to slap some stuff together as quick as they possibly can.

It’s going to have no thoughts.

It’s going to have no emotions.

It’s going to have no nothing.

And then you’re out of business in six months.

There goes your life savings.

There goes your dream of your local coffee shop.

There goes a place, dude, think about it this way.

Think about it this way.

If this coffee shop actually has a mission of bringing back face-to-face conversation and all the value that comes along with that, bringing that, that’s like a real awesome mission that could, you know, have huge, valuable impact in people’s lives. the people who are going to visit this coffee shop in the future won’t get that opportunity if you’re out of business.

So there’s so much to lose, so much to lose. you can’t afford to make this decision on price.

Okay.

This is the, this is, this is, the vibe you have to have when you’re in these sales conversations. just like I told you in the beginning with the two nine frame for Figma is $299.

You’re telling me you can’t make that money back in 18 seconds flat doing what I just did here.

That really you don’t even, it doesn’t even require you to know how to use Figma.

You’re telling me you can’t do that.

You’re going to do that in 18 seconds.

Look at the prices.

Okay.

Now you might need to improve how you sell your projects and how you price your projects, but it’s not like that information is not available to you.

Okay.

It’s, it’s obviously available to you.

Okay.

Let’s go Q and a, I don’t even know what time it is.

We’re riffing and rolling.

Yes.

Why can’t they scrape it together?

Because they think about the going rate and what others charge.

They think it’s way too expensive.

Um, not necessarily, not necessarily.

So especially for local, I mean, this is correct. you’re correct in a lot of different ways, but when it comes to local businesses, I’ll just, I’ll be honest with you.

Here’s how they are, um, weighing the price and comparing the price.

Uh, obviously if I go, if I’m going to buy a TV, I’m going to buy a new flat screen TV.

I can go on Amazon.

I see 500 flat screen TVs.

I can walk into a Best Buy.

I see 500 flat screen TVs.

I see prices.

And immediately I know if I’m going to buy a TV, yeah, I can buy a $10,000 TV, but most people that are walking into the store appear to be buying TVs in the range of $600 to $2,000.

And so that’s kind of where you might be putting yourself unless you’re wealthy.

And then you’re going to want the best of the best, right?

But you’re going to be kind of putting them yourself in that little bracket.

Okay.

So a local, but this is an inconsequential purchase at the end of the day.

This isn’t like your business doesn’t depend on this.

The TV is not going to generate tens of thousands of dollars in revenue for you.

Like, so it’s not a perfect analogy, but they are getting their price point from reality around them.

Local business owners, like local service-based business, even local product-based business owners, they really don’t have real data that they’re operating from.

You know where they get the price of what a website should be?

The Joe Schmo Bob that did their initial website for something like eight years ago.

Okay.

And they paid them $750.

So they have that little recollection in their, in their mind.

And then maybe a friend offered to do it for them for, again, $750.

So they have that price point in their mind.

And then the rest of it is just made up.

So they watched a Wix commercial.

They watched a Squarespace commercial.

Wix and Squarespace told them anybody can do this.

And so they are thinking, oh, anybody can do this.

It shouldn’t be that expensive.

Okay.

So what, what, what am I willing to pay for this?

I mean, maybe $750, $1,000, something like I’ll put $1,000 into it.

They’re, this is the conversation they’re having with themselves before they ever meet you.

Now, is that real data?

No, they don’t.

They have not commissioned another, they have not gone to another agency.

They have not gone to anybody in the realm of professional and gotten an actual quote.

That has not happened in the vast majority of these cases.

Okay.

Now, if it has happened, we’ll find that out.

But in the vast majority of cases, it has not happened.

So you, when you give your price, are dealing with somebody who is operating in a pure fantasy land about what the price should actually be.

And that’s okay.

You have to understand that that’s happening though.

Because when you give them a bracket, we’re not going to give them a price.

Okay.

We’re going to give them a bracket.

We’re going to say, typically when we do, and this is why we position it this way.

This is why you say, typically sites like this to let them know, hey, because the same thing, when they watch 50 people walk in and buy a TV, if they’re all buying, let’s say they were all buying $5,000 TVs.

Okay.

And we said, and then they said, how much is the TV going to, well, typically, you know, $5,000 is an average purchase, right?

They’re going to be like, oh, okay.

I mean, that’s, that’s normal.

That’s normal.

We have to explain what’s normal.

So for the other businesses like yours, we’re from $5,000 to $15,000.

Now they might be thinking, let’s say that they were thinking a thousand.

Their brain’s going haywire right now.

They’re short circuiting right now.

They’re like, they might not be vocally short circuiting, but they internally, they’re short circuiting, but they’re not saying no.

They’re not.

What most people do is they get in quick.

Like, I, okay.

Explain it to me.

I don’t understand.

I thought it was going to be like a thousand dollars.

Okay.

Now you have the opportunity to educate.

Now you go watch the process is everything masterclass.

Now you start to go right into, okay, well, let me, by the way, same reason you, they would explain why their coffee shop is better than somebody else’s coffee shop.

If they even have a reason.

But you can easily say, well, first of all, let’s, let’s look at what you stand to lose, right?

We have to sell this business to people.

And if we do a bad job of that, here’s what’s going to happen.

If we do a good job of that, here’s what’s going to happen.

Because the other thing in their mind, you have to understand there’s so many hurdles that you have to get over that you have to know that there exist, that they exist in order to jump over them.

One of the hurdles is when they say, I need a website, they think that they’re going to hire you to move some pixels around a screen to resemble a website.

And then it’s going to somehow be accessible to other people.

When they type in www.coffeeshop.com, they have no recollection of what it actually takes to do this properly.

They don’t understand copywriting.

They don’t understand marketing that much.

They’ve just gotten by with what they’re able to slap together.

These are not, again, local business owners, but even, you know, even some CEOs are dumbasses, okay?

So you have to figure out where these people are at with what they understand about this process.

Because for sure, if they think that you’re just slapping a few pixels on a screen and hitting publish somehow, and it all magically comes together, yeah, why would you pay more than $1,000 for that?

What could they, what could copy A versus copy B actually do when they don’t even know anything about copy in the first place?

They don’t know the first thing about real selling, okay?

All they did is they had a dream to open a coffee shop and they had some money laying around and this is what they decided to do.

This is often the people you are going to be dealing with.

These are not business masterminds, okay?

These are not, they don’t have a lot of marketing experience.

In fact, this is why the number one book that I recommend to every single human, even though it’s probably one of the most top recommended books, it’s not a secret.

It’s not a secret weapon, but it does drive home the number one point of entrepreneurship.

The book is The E-Myth, okay?

If you haven’t read The E-Myth, it’s on every list, right?

So I’m not giving you a secret.

It’s on every single list, but it’s mandatory reading because it defines the number one problem in business is that people start businesses and they’re not business owners.

They are not entrepreneurs.

They are not marketers.

They think that they just have to be good at the thing that they do and it could be in any capacity.

It could be a cook.

I’m a good cook.

Therefore, I can open a kitchen.

I can open a restaurant.

I’m good at making coffee.

I’m a coffee aficionado.

Therefore, I can make a successful coffee shop.

I’m good at XYZ.

Therefore, I can build a business doing XYZ.

That it’s called The E-Myth for a reason.

It is the biggest myth.

You are going to constantly be dealing with people who are suffering from the E-Myth.

They think because they can do XYZ that they know how to do all the things in business around XYZ and they don’t.

They don’t know how to sell it.

They don’t know how to market it.

They don’t know how to build a business around it.

They don’t know how to do business finance.

They don’t know how to do anything.

They don’t know how to do much of anything.

Okay?

Now, if they’ve been in business a long time, they’ve scraped together some skills.

But still, they’re going to have their weaknesses and they’re going to have their strengths.

There’s going to be some guys that are really good at talking to sell.

And then they’re going to be, but they can’t, you ask them for content, they give you absolute dog shit.

Right?

So this is the reality that you’re operating in.

What you have to be able to do as the consultant, if you want to make the bigger dollars and you want to actually put together projects that win and that work and that matter, you have to be able to come in and take the reins.

So when you’re on the phone call with this person, this is all part of the checkpoints that I talk about too in the sales call checkpoints training that I’ve done.

You have to come in and essentially immediately put on the consulting cap, start talking about all these different areas, why they’re so important.

And what the, this paints a picture of like, dude, I, they, you want them to come to the conclusion, the bottom line, you want them to come to the conclusion.

I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

That’s the truth already.

They just need to come to that conclusion.

Let’s call that a realization.

They just need to come to the realization.

I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing.

And this guy does.

Makes sense that I should probably hire him.

Okay.

That’s what they, so if all you talk about is, let’s say that you get on the phone, where’s my phone?

Ring, ring, ring.

Oh, Hey, yeah.

I heard you needed a website.

Da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

Okay.

Well, yeah.

Tell me what you like.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Do you have any URLs that I can?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, we can do something just like this.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, oh, you like the pink color.

Okay.

That’s good.

That’s good.

Yeah.

We can do that.

We can, is there anything else you want done on this website?

Okay.

Yep.

Well, here’s how it works.

Um, we can totally build a website just like this and you give us the copy and you’re fucking out of business.

Okay.

Quit doing that.

Just close down right now.

You’re not, this is not how you do this.

You don’t ask them what they like.

You don’t ask them for the content.

You don’t do, you don’t take their lead and do all the things that they want you to do.

They don’t know what they’re doing.

So why would you let them steer the ship?

Stop it.

And they’re not going to pay you anything to do that.

And at the end of the day, they’re going to feel like they did everything.

That is, that’s not the business you want to be in.

Okay.

You take charge.

You explain all the important areas and why they’re important.

You get them to the realization that they don’t know how to do any of it because they don’t.

And then the obvious thing is, and by the way, when they go get other bids, imagine getting a bid from what we’ve done here, a person who does that kind of work versus the bid of the person we just saw on the phone.

They’re going to be like, wait a minute, hold on.

This other company talked about all these different areas, why copywriting is so important, why it’s got to be, we got to tell the narrative of what I’m trying to do and really make sure people understand the mission.

And then this guy over here was asking me what I like and then told me I was going to have to provide the content.

You think that’s a decision they’re ever going to go with that guy over you?

Never.

Unless they’re dumb.

And in that case, you don’t want them as a client.

So, you know, good luck.

Everything has to change.

Everything about how you’re approaching these projects, pricing these projects, and it starts with getting out of your own way.

Getting out of your own excuses of a coffee shop can’t afford this, a coffee shop doesn’t want to do this, a coffee shop won’t do this.

Yeah, the dumb ones won’t, but the ones you actually want as a client absolutely will once you convince them that it needs to be done.

And it helps if you can give examples.

It helps if you can, you know, riff with them on these calls.

It’s why one of the checkpoints is getting to like, yeah, what makes your business different?

What is your mission?

Why are, and by the way, you’re looking for red flags.

A sales call is not to sell everybody on a website.

So, when we talked earlier about fiction marketing versus nonfiction marketing, you want to be in the business of doing nonfiction marketing.

So, here’s the thing.

When I get on a call with somebody and I start asking them, yeah, what is your mission?

What makes your business different?

Why would I choose you over the other 10 competitors in your niche, yada, yada, yada?

If they can’t give me good answers, you know what I’m thinking?

Either, one, I don’t want this project.

Or two, I have to charge twice as much because I have to figure all this stuff out.

And I have to try to convince them to do something important and do something relevant and to do something special.

And that’s going to require them changing a little bit of their business model.

And I don’t even know if they’re willing to do that.

Maybe I should ask them if they’re willing to do that.

And I have, on calls, been like, I hear you, but I’m not hearing anything that’s really different, right?

And then see what they say after that.

Can they dig something up, right?

And then you get to the line of like, okay, if we’re going to do this, we need to be, I tell them, we need to be able to market this thing, okay?

It can’t be like everything else.

And then you figure out how open they are to hearing your suggestions.

How open are they to moving in a slightly different direction?

And if they’re not willing to do these things, they’re not a good client.

And you just tell them, not a good fit.

You’re looking to not sell everybody a website.

You’re looking to figure out who it’s going to be a really good idea to partner with to do this project.

Because that’s what you’re doing.

Like, I actually want this client to still be here three years from now, five years from now.

Because after we do the website, we’re then going to take over some aspect of marketing for them, most likely.

And then we’re going to look at helping them expand this business from one location into 15 locations.

And if that’s, of course, something that they want to do, I want to be here the entire way.

But in order to do that, they need to be a good client.

They need to be a good business.

So I don’t know.

What I’m proposing is you start thinking about all of these things in a very different way.

And so much of this is outlined in the inner circle.

But this demonstration of what we’ve done right here just goes to show of like, it’s kind of defeating the narrative that, oh, you don’t need Figma.

I mean, you don’t need to do this kind of thing.

You don’t need, you can just, you can just iterate all this.

All this can just be done in bricks.

Like, you just slap all this together in bricks.

No, you really can’t.

You can’t do the work correctly.

You can’t do the work properly in a dev environment.

It’s just, it’s a non-starter.

And this is why really professional agencies don’t show up to meetings.

They show up to meetings with Figma files like this.

They don’t show up to meetings with a dev environment.

Okay.

And that would be one of the ways where I could, if a client asked me, how do I know the people I’m working with are legit?

Well, if they show up with the initial work done in a page builder, fucking fire them.

Like that’s just a huge red flag.

Right.

If they show up with Figma files and iterations and ideas.

Okay.

Now, now that’s, that’s promising.

Green flags.

Green flags.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

All right.

All right.

All right.

All right.

Let’s get to, let’s, we got to answer questions.

You guys are rizzing me up in the comments.

We don’t need any of that.

Uh, all right.

Let’s go to hashtag Q.

There’s no hashtag Qs.

It doesn’t appear.

Oh wait.

I was in favorites.

Maybe.

Okay.

I found them.

I found them.

Have no fear.

Um, all right.

Let’s start at the bottom.

All right.

Let’s start at the bottom and work our way to the top.

Their hosting will stop supporting it soon.

I attempt to upgrade them to 18.4, but the site went poof.

Any recommendations?

I mean, I’m not a, I’m not a, you know, backend specialist.

One new client has an old site running 7.4 PHP.

Their hosting will stop supporting it soon.

I attempted to upgrade them to 8.4 in a test environment, but the site went poof.

I mean, there’s so many things to look at.

There’s, you got to look at the entire stack.

I would say.

Hopefully you have a backup.

Uh, I’m sure you do, but yeah, I would look at that.

Are there any of these coming soon ACSS themes, uh, for ACSS and frames for Figma, SureCard frames, ACSS, SureCard integration, ACSS themes would be so useful.

Um, yes, there are, uh, there are coming soon pages.

You can use squeeze pages for them.

There’s a bunch of squeeze pages, landing pages.

Uh, I think there’s a few that are called coming soon.

Uh, there are some of those.

There will be SureCard, uh, compatible frames, just like there’s WooCommerce compatible frames.

Uh, I’m working on integration with SureCard because they, they use, uh, everything is tokenized in SureCard, which actually means we can style everything from the ACSS dashboard eventually.

Uh, but we’re looking at doing that.

Their new SureDash products we’re looking at integrating with in various ways.

So yeah, there’s a lot coming from the Sure ecosystem.

That will all be coming in 2025.

Okay.

Um, so you charge $300 for wireframing a service page.

How much you develop considering all the CPTs and entering all of that data.

Uh, so all the pricing is actually in the inner, like I give my whole pricing list in the, in the inner circle.

Um, but you could, if we’re just flatlining things here, cause there’s no, there’s no like right or wrong other, other than like, you know, dramatic.

Here’s the wrong.

The wrong is not charging for these things.

That’s objectively wrong.

Um, not doing these things is objectively wrong as well.

These things need to be done.

This just needs to be done as part of a professional workflow.

So whether it’s getting done or not, that’s right or wrong.

Um, now the price point you put on it, that’s up to you.

Uh, I would, I would take baby steps.

It’s very difficult for people to go from, I sell $1,500 websites to suddenly now I’m charging for discovery and I’m charging for wireframes and I’m charging for a copy and I’m charging for UI design.

And then I’m charging for dev.

That’s a big jump.

Now I w I would say to do that jump, but you can do the jump with smaller numbers, but then what you’re going to find because you’re, you’re going to start doing this work and you’ll be like, I’m not getting paid to do enough to do this.

I need to, I need to raise the price of this particular step right here.

By the way, you saw why copywriting is so expensive.

Okay.

You can’t just, you know, regurgitate winning copy.

You got to start with first, you got to start with discovery.

Then you got to do bad copy.

Then you got to do mediocre copy.

Then you got to do good copy.

And then if you iterate enough, you can get to some really cool, uh, copy.

Now that’s going to depend on how much, how, what the budget is of the client.

Okay.

Um, so you, you, you at least want to get to good, effective copy.

You don’t have to get to world-class copy unless they’re going to have world-class money, but you want to get to good, effective copy.

Right.

Which didn’t take us that long.

Like I would say that this is good, effective copy.

If we go down to this, something right here.

Um, not, I’m still not sold on the headline here, but I think this hook of, you know, think coffee is a midtown Atlanta coffee shop with a hundred percent organic coffee where you can unplug, slow down and have meaningful conversations like the old days.

Uh, it like speaks to some nostalgia.

It speaks to the mission.

It highlights a few of the key points, like a hundred percent organic.

Um, it, it highlights the location in midtown Atlanta.

So the SEO guy is going to be happy.

It’s got, you know, it, it checks a lot of boxes, right.

And it’s way better than just slapping some bullshit in there that, you know, most coffee shops would probably, probably put that didn’t take us all that long to get to.

And we would have gotten there quicker if we had actually done the discovery step in the workbook in the first place.

Uh, but again, good effective copy is what you’re looking for.

For most of these clients doesn’t have to be world-class just has to be good, effective copy.

Um, okay.

So let’s just keep everything flat across the board.

You could say, I’m not saying to do this.

I’m just saying you could easily say this $200 for the wireframe for each page, right?

So $200 per page.

Uh, let’s say $200 per page for copywriting, $200 per page for UI design.

Now you’re going to see if that, if that fits with your UI designer, whoever’s doing the UI design.

Um, and I, and I would try to get your UI designer to give you a flat rate per page.

Right.

Uh, and typically what you’re doing with the creativity side of things is you’re giving them a box to live in.

Okay.

And say, Hey, this is a, I want, you know, I want some creativity, but I don’t want you to go crazy with it.

Right.

I just stay in the lines, uh, and give me something that is unique, but this doesn’t have to be, it’s not an art show.

Okay.

We’re not trying to win design awards.

We’re just trying to effectively communicate the narrative and we want the design to help with that.

We don’t want the design to be the focal point of the website.

We just want this thing to look good.

Um, and so if they’re going to try to make a masterpiece, obviously that’s going to be very expensive, but if they’re just going to stay within a box and you’re already giving them wireframes and they just have to make it a bit prettier and a little bit unique to this company, then they’re going to be able to give you a flat rate for that in most cases.

So, which is good because then you can do your pricing based on that rate that they’re providing you.

Um, so then you do the flat rate for UI design and then a flat rate for dev.

Let’s just say $200 for dev.

So add up all those $200 pieces and that’s what you get per page.

And now times how many pages there’s at least a starting point for you to work from.

Now, as I’ve always said as well, you have a minimum that you are going to start with.

So there’s a lot of other stuff.

There is all of the prep work.

There is of course the discovery.

There is the launching the website.

Eventually there is all of the accessibility work that you might do on this, which frames does a lot for you, but there’s still going to be more that you have to do.

Um, and, uh, any other iteration that might go in project management fees, things like that.

So you can’t just use those flat rate prices.

Um, I always have a project management fee that’s tacked on the bottom.

Uh, the discovery fee is tacked on the top.

So sandwich in to you have the discovery as the top piece of bread and project management is the bottom piece of bread.

All the work is in the middle.

And what you’ll find typically is that even to get to like a one page website, minimum to do a one page website.

We’ve also talked about, if you’re new here, we’ve talked about how web design projects are heavily, heavily front loaded.

So to get to the homepage, which has your header and your footer, well, the header footer are going to exist everywhere.

Uh, the cards that you create.

So these cards, I’m going to use them everywhere.

It doesn’t matter if I’m going to use them on one page or 10 pages because clients will say, ah, come on.

I mean, it’s a one page website, Jack, it doesn’t matter.

I still have to design the things that we would use on other pages.

If there were other pages, like it doesn’t make my life easier.

Just there’s one page.

Okay.

It makes it a little bit easier, a little bit cheaper, but you have to charge for the front loaded nature of the work that you’re doing, which is just to get to one page could be minimum $3,500.

I was saying 5,000, 65, 7,500 in some cases, if depending on if you’re doing the copy or not, that would be to get to one page.

Now that doesn’t mean page two is going to be another $5,000.

It just means that’s our starting point.

So there’s a lot that goes into the pricing, but at the same time, it’s can be kind of flat in the middle there.

Okay.

Between the layers of the sandwich.

All right.

Hopefully I answered that question.

Yeah.

Somebody mentioned the mobile view capacity to do this for mobile.

You absolutely can.

You absolutely can.

Like, let’s see, type header device mobile.

And so if I come down here and I do this on all of these, all of these sections, I am going to end up with a mobile layout for this page.

Now, I would do this way toward the end, right?

Way toward the end.

And then you also want to determine whether this is actually necessary or not.

That gives you an idea of what you can do to arrive at a mobile layout in frames for Figma.

I’ll just be honest with you.

Like, with intrinsic design, with automatic responsiveness, with things like container queries, we kind of already know.

You already know, like, how this stuff is going to stack.

There might be some sections here or there where you decide, all right, well, I guess what I’m getting at is, like, most of responsive design in the modern era, especially if you’re using a framework like automatic Cs, it’s all common sense.

It’s like, yes, we don’t want overflow.

What do I need to know from the Figma file that I don’t already know, you know?

Other than, like, all right, well, we’re not going to have this button here.

Like, we’re going to remove the button on mobile versus desktop or whatever.

But honestly, that’s like a conversation that can just be, you can put a fucking note on it at the end of the day, right?

I don’t know if all of the work to produce a mobile version of every single page justifies the work to do it, right?

But that’s how easy it is.

I mean, if you did need to do it or wanted to do it, that’s how easy it is.

Let’s see.

Will there be a frames for Figma but for PinPot in the future?

I’ve never used it.

I know it’s up and coming.

I know it’s open source, right?

I think maybe it’s open source.

It all depends on market size, right?

If there’s enough people clamoring for the PinPot version, it would make sense, obviously.

But it’s also like, you know, why don’t you integrate ACSS completely with, man, what is that?

Zion?

Like Zion.

Okay.

When’s the last time you heard about Zion?

You know, there was like eight people that tried to convince me to do ACSS for Zion.

When’s the last time you heard anybody mention Zion Builder?

So if we had done all that work, let’s say it would be $10,000 to integrate with Zion Builder, I would have flushed that right down the toilet and all those hours.

And then we wouldn’t have done something else that we should have been doing in the first place.

So that could happen with PinPot.

How do I know that’s not going to happen with PinPot?

It’s got to get to a market cap before we can be like, okay, yes, that’s the direction we’re going to go with that.

Okay.

Because by the way, this is a astronomical amount of work.

Tommy did an astronomical amount of work on this.

So you got to keep that in mind.

These things can’t just be whipped up out of thin air.

Do we need a paid subscription of Figma?

No, you don’t need paid anything.

You buy frames for Figma once, $2.99.

Then you make all this money doing all this work and your projects improve and you’re more professional and everything is great.

There’s nothing else to buy.

Do we duplicate the file per project?

Yes.

Every project uses its own file.

Let’s see.

Okay.

I just got frames for Figma.

Figma already have 15 pages wireframed.

Any tricks to quickly current content different?

Oh, you, you mean you manually wireframed pages without frames for Figma.

Okay.

Use frames for Figma on your next project.

Don’t, don’t try to morph an existing manual project into frames for Figma.

Just use it on your next project.

And then the next one, the next one, the next one.

Let’s see.

Can I use frames for Figma without frames?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

This doesn’t require that you have frames for bricks or frames for etch.

You can do all of this and then you can just hand this off.

Let’s say you’re a UI designer.

You don’t even develop, you don’t even build sites.

You don’t even offer sites to be built.

You just design.

You just wireframe and you design.

This is for you because you do it.

You just hand this off to a developer and then they’ll be able to do everything from there.

And they don’t have to use automatic CSS.

They can, they can do it however they want, but you’re giving them the low fidelity wireframes and the high fidelity UI design.

Okay.

Have you explored the best features of other page builders for etch, such as framer, webflow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

It’s my job to look at everything that’s out there.

I will tell you that I feel that they are all, they’re all copycats in one way or another.

Like most builders these days are copycat builders.

They all use the same UI, essentially, the same sidebars approach, the same everything approach.

They, none of them really give you great access to code the way that you would want or the way that you actually need.

A lot of things have to be re-imagined and nobody has had the balls to re-imagine it until now.

So it’s, it’s just completely different.

Etches.

And I initially didn’t want to make something completely different, but then I came to the realization that it has to be because none of the others are doing it the way that it should be done.

So it has to be new.

But at the same time, I think we found a way to dramatically simplify the UI.

So one, one thing you’re not going to feel when you open etch is overwhelm.

And you can actually very easily feel the sense of overwhelm when you open oxygen or bricks.

I mean, it feels like you’re in like a 747 cockpit, right?

There’s switches everywhere.

There’s dials everywhere.

There’s inputs everywhere.

There’s, I mean, you could go in any direct, like it’s, it’s crazy.

It’s craziness.

And it’s not that, um, it’s not that there’s value in minimizing things in, in like there actually there, it could be less valuable if you, if you minimalized it in the wrong way.

Gutenberg is a prime example.

Gutenberg tried to simplify, but in simplifying, they made it a nightmare.

So there’s no inherent value in simplification.

We would all rather have bricks over Gutenberg, right?

I think, I think that’s true.

Um, so we would rather have the 747 cockpit over the overly simplified interface that is Gutenberg.

Etch, I would describe as like a real time interface.

Uh, it gives you the things that you need, but when you need them, where bricks, oxygen, and all these other page builders, they show you everything at all times.

It’s like, even if you don’t need that thing and aren’t going to touch it for the next eight days, it’s still sitting there in your real estate.

And, and that’s, that’s, doesn’t need to happen.

So that’s the first thing that we’ve kind of talked about is like, um, this kind of like real time UI where it’s like, I’m doing this thing right now.

Therefore I see this UI.

And if I’m doing something else at the time, I might see different options in the UI.

Um, and then it’s, um, it’s a horizontal real estate UI by default, or every other UI is vertical by default.

Uh, that’s for a very good reason.

There there’s just a, it’s just very different.

It’s very different.

Um, but we think that it’s going to be way better.

And I do think that there’s going to be value in the sense that when you open it, you don’t, you’re going to immediately know what to do.

You don’t feel a sense of overwhelm.

You don’t feel like you’re in a 747 cockpit.

You don’t like, it’s going to be very obvious what you’re supposed to do first, um, with regard to adding elements on the page and then how you’re going to style those elements and how you’re going to add classes.

And then what you’re going to see is that, oh, even though it is very simple, there’s actually, I would say a hundred times more flexibility and access to things than in any other interface, because you can, you can already do things in etch that you can’t even begin to think about doing in bricks.

Um, which is neat.

That’s fun.

That’s exciting.

Uh, okay.

By the way, when you have access to the code, um, you actually don’t need much from a UI.

The UI is nice to have in certain ways, but you don’t, you don’t need it.

Like bricks, if you didn’t have the UI stuff, you’d be dead in the water.

You can’t do a damn thing because you don’t have access to the code.

Once you have access to the code, it’s, it’s amazing what you can do.

Even when a UI doesn’t exist for that thing, uh, which we’re already seeing an etch.

I mean, you’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, I don’t know, a month, two months away.

Like the WP town hall site.

If we use that as an example, it’s not crazy.

Um, you know, it’s not, it’s not crazy.

It’s fair.

It’s fairly simple.

Uh, let’s go to like, you know, it’s got another page here.

I gotta, I gotta fix the widget here.

I didn’t realize that, um, what is that service I use?

I don’t know.

Fucking what?

It’s got some cute name.

I didn’t realize that their widget, it was like a latest episodes widget.

I didn’t realize it was like all latest episodes, like all episodes widget.

Um, so I got to replace that, that widget that comes, that’s a third party widget.

Um, but this site right here, I don’t know.

We’re a month, two months away from me being able to build this whole site in etch.

And I probably will just replace it.

Um, so that’s how close we are.

That’s how close we are to like a brochure, a brochure site.

All right, let’s look at the chat.

I got to get out of here.

I got, I got some work to do.

Hmm.

I’m just going to catch up on chat real quick.

Make sure there’s nothing overly pressing to get to.

Buzzsprout.

That’s it.

Yes.

I do like, I, I, I really like Buzzsprout as a service.

Um, Boulder says he’s at 5,000 minimum.

I think that’s a really good price point to be at.

I think for local service-based businesses, um, you know, even, even, yeah, bottom, bottom line, local business, 5,000 minimum.

If you’re going to do legit work for them, like we talked about $5,000 a minute, they are going to get so much ROI on that.

It’s, it’s, it’s insane.

That’s still kind of a lopsided price.

Okay.

All right.

Uh, we’re going to, we’re going to put this in the books.

I think it’s got enough value in it.

It’s got enough, uh, well, time spent two and a two hours, 10 minutes.

Here’s the thing.

Um, there’s going to be some announcements about WDD live as we head into 2025.

I’m not sure if I’ll do an episode on this.

Maybe I’ll dedicate the next WDD live to this, but we’re in a, I’m in a decision-making mode.

Does WDD live continue in 2025?

Does it go IC exclusive in 2025?

Exclusive to the inner circle.

Does it go partial to the inner circle and then partial stays in its current format here?

Does it go away altogether?

And I’ll, and I’ll tell you why I’m considering those changes for 2025.

We’ll go into all of the details.

Uh, we can probably do that on, on the next episode.

Okay.

Um, but that’ll be important for figuring out what we’re going to do in terms of our plan for next year and what we’re able to do if those changes happen in other areas.

Uh, but yeah, that’ll be an interesting conversation to have.

Andre says, please review one of my websites.

Uh, if you submitted it, Andre, um, maybe we’ll do that.

We’ll do our WDD live future of WDD discussion.

And then we’ll do kind of back to old school.

We’ll do a, uh, a website review.

All right.

I love you guys.

I appreciate the support and being here and I will see you again very, very soon.

Cheers.

Cheers.

Cheers.

Thank you.